Evidence of meeting #15 for International Trade in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tca.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Doug Forsyth  Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Aaron Fowler  Chief Agriculture Negotiator and Director General, Trade Agreements and Negotiations, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Shamali Gupta  Deputy Director, Investment Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Christine Roy  Deputy Director, Services Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Christine Lafrance

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

I call the meeting to order. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, February 1, 2021, we begin our study of Bill C-18, an act to implement the agreement on trade continuity between Canada and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Before I go to our witnesses—we're waiting for two others to join us—I would remind the committee that we mentioned we would confirm how many meetings the committee wanted to have on BillC-18. Does anyone have any suggestions? Do we want to agree to go with three meetings on Bill C-18, or do you feel that more are necessary?

Ms. Bendayan.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm happy to hear from colleagues from the opposition as to what they would prefer. I recall that at the last meeting a few of them raised an interest to have a full, lengthy study of Bill C-18, so I'm all ears as to what the suggestion will be. For my part, I wanted to confirm to the committee members that the minister is available to appear on, I believe, what will be our next meeting, February 19.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Ms. Gray.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think we do want to have some wholesome input from some witnesses, but at the same time we don't want to be delaying this in any way. Your suggestion of three meetings, four meetings.... If the minister is coming, then we should have a couple of meetings where we have stakeholders, so somewhere in that range should fit within the timeline.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Blaikie.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

I'm happy to further defer the question until we've heard from a witness or two and get a sense of some of the extant issues that we want to pursue with respect to the legislation. I wanted to put on the table that I don't personally see a need to decide right now.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Okay, not seeing any further discussion then, Mr. Blaikie has suggested that we put off the decision until the next meeting. The next meeting will be on the 19th. If everyone is comfortable, we'll hear the witnesses today and at the end of either today's meeting or on the 19th, we'll decide exactly how many meetings the committee would like to have.

Is that all right with everybody? I don't see anybody saying no, so I'm going to assume it's okay.

We'll go on to our witnesses.

From the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, we have Aaron Fowler, chief agriculture negotiator and director general, trade agreements and negotiations.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Christine Roy, deputy director, services trade policy; Shamali Gupta, deputy director, investment trade policy; Doug Forsyth, director general for market access and chief negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom trade continuity agreement; Allison Trenholm, deputy chief negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom trade continuity agreement; and Lori Di Pierdomenico, legal counsel.

Welcome to our witnesses.

We will turn the floor over to Mr. Forsyth, please.

1:10 p.m.

Doug Forsyth Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members, for the invitation to appear before the Standing Committee on International Trade to address Bill C-18, an act to implement the agreement on trade continuity between Canada and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

We thank the committee for its ongoing interest in Canada’s trade relationship with the United Kingdom and its attention to this bill to implement the Canada-U.K. trade continuity agreement, TCA.

In my remarks today, I will provide a brief overview of the context for the TCA and the highlights of the concluded agreement. My colleagues and I then look forward to taking your questions.

Turning to the context for the Canada-U.K. TCA, as you are aware, the United Kingdom's departure from the European Union has had a real impact on our bilateral trade relations, because it means that the U.K. can no longer participate in our existing preferential trade agreement, the Canada-EU Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA.

The express aim of the trade dialogue, and the trade continuity agreement that resulted, was to substantively replicate the CETA on a bilateral basis in order to ensure a seamless transition of our trade relations and seek to avoid potential cliff edges for business.

While still an EU member, the U.K. was not legally able to negotiate new trade agreements. However, it could discuss replicating the terms of existing EU agreements as it prepared for Brexit. Therefore, negotiating a transitional trade agreement based on CETA offered the best opportunity for Canada to provide as much predictability and continuity as possible for our stakeholders. However, the exercise to replicate CETA was unlike any other trade negotiation Canada has undertaken. The Brexit process was not straightforward either, as the departure date shifted multiple times and the U.K. contemplated changes in its post-Brexit trade approaches.

For Canada, in order to finalize our trade continuity agreement and discussions with the U.K. and to reach an agreement that was in the best interests of Canadians, we needed as much clarity as possible. In May 2020, the U.K. published its most-favoured-nation applied tariff schedule that would take effect when its departure from the EU was complete. In June 2020, the U.K. provided formal notification to the EU that it would complete the departure by the end of 2020 without opting for a one- or two-year extension where CETA would have continued to apply to the U.K.

These two developments were key to informing Canada’s interests in finalizing the trade continuity agreement with the U.K. last November. With the ratification process for the trade continuity agreement ongoing, and seeking to mitigate the effect of a gap in preferential trading terms where possible, we subsequently signed a memorandum of understanding with the United Kingdom on December 22 to provide reciprocal tariff preferences on an interim basis.

It is important to note that these mitigation measures, by way of duty remission orders by Canada and the U.K., cover trade in goods only. Only the ratification and implementation of the TCA will provide the certainty that stakeholders are currently seeking as well as coverage across both goods and non-goods areas, as replicated from CETA.

Turning to the Canada-U.K. TCA texts, in reference to the CETA replication you will see that the TCA incorporates CETA by reference into a short-form treaty format and identifies the necessary modifications to the CETA provisions in the annexes to the short-form treaty. As such, the TCA text needs to be understood in conjunction with CETA. In most areas, the TCA is a replication of CETA, which means it is therefore a known quantity to stakeholders, provinces and territories, exporters and members of Parliament.

A small but important list of chapters required intensive negotiation to turn the CETA obligations into Canada-U.K. obligations. For these areas, we undertook targeted consultations with stakeholders in those implicated sectors and kept them informed of developments. In addition to providing stakeholders with updates on progress throughout the trade dialogue, we have also been keeping provincial and territorial representatives informed via the committee on trade, or, as we call it, “C-Trade”. What we heard from both groups was a strong interest in ensuring continuity of our trade relations with the U.K. and the ability to return to the negotiating table to discuss a future FTA that would be tailored to the bilateral trade relationship.

I'll now outline some of the highlights of the TCA.

In goods market access, the TCA carries forward 100% of CETA tariff elimination commitments, immediately eliminating tariffs on 98% of Canadian exports to the U.K. Canadian exporters across all sectors—agriculture, fish and seafood, and non-agriculture—will benefit from continued preferential access to the U.K. market, with access to the same tariff rates as they have to the EU market under CETA.

For tariff rate quotas, like CETA, Canada maintains duty-free quota access for eight Canadian agriculture and seafood products that are subject to transitional or permanent tariff rate quotas, TRQs. The agreement provides commercially meaningful access for all Canadian products, subject to transitional and permanent TRQs. In addition, under the TCA, the TRQ administration process was streamlined for beef, pork and wheat. These exporters will no longer face import licensing requirements and will have access to the U.K. market through a first-come, first-served system.

With respect to supply management under the TCA, Canada made no new market access commitments for cheese or any other supply-managed products. Canada has agreed to a temporary outcome that will provide continuity to the U.K.'s access under Canada's WTO cheese tariff rate quota until December 31, 2023. The total amount of market access Canada provides for cheese remains unchanged.

With respect to rules of origin, the TCA allows for accumulation with the European Union. In other words, materials sourced from the EU that are used in the production of goods in Canada or the U.K. will count towards the originating status of those goods for purposes of Canada-U.K. trade.

The TCA includes origin quotas with the same volume to CETA for trade, textiles and apparel, and for certain seafood products. The origin quota volumes for certain agriculture and seafood products as well as for motor vehicles have been revised, but remain significantly higher than recent Canadian exports of these goods.

Provisions on accumulation with the EU and the origin quotas are set to expire in three years unless Canada and the U.K. agree to extend them. Without the ability to accumulate with the EU, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for many U.K. goods to qualify for preferential treatment under the TCA. This provides a real and meaningful incentive for the U.K. to negotiate a subsequent FTA with Canada within three years of entering into force.

The areas I've just covered are currently in effect by the duty remission orders and the MOU that is in place on an interim basis. These provisions are not in place with cross-border trade services.

With respect to cross-border trade services, the TCA fully preserves the benefits of CETA and includes key obligations such as non-discrimination and market access. The TCA will continue to guarantee comprehensive access to the U.K. for Canadian service providers, which remains among the best commitments that the U.K. has ever signed with a trading partner.

As with CETA, the TCA also ensures that Canada maintain flexibility to take measures regarding sensitive sectors such as health, public education and cultural industries.

The investment chapter is a technical replication of CETA. Canadian investors will continue to enjoy the right to establish, acquire and operate investments in the U.K. on an equal footing with domestic and other investors. Investment obligations are carefully formulated such that Canada and the U.K. fully preserve their right to regulate in the public interest, including through exceptions and reservations. However, the replicated investment dispute resolution provisions will be suspended upon the entering into force of the TCA, pending a review by the parties, which is to commence three months after entering into force.

The purpose of the review will be to consider the approach to investment dispute resolution that best reflects the bilateral relationship between Canada and the U.K.

With respect to government procurement, Canadian suppliers will have guaranteed and predictable access to opportunities to supply their goods and services to all levels of government in the U.K., including regional and local governments, bodies governed by public law—for example, hospitals and universities—as well as a number of entities operating in the utility sector and public services. The U.K. market on access commitments, under the TCA, is estimated to be worth approximately $118 billion.

Looking forward, a subsequent negotiations clause in the TCA commits Canada and the U.K. to enter into new trading negotiations within a year of entering into force, and to strive to conclude a new agreement within three years from the TCA's entry into force.

The government will undertake public consultations with Canadians ahead of any formal launch of subsequent negotiations with the U.K. and fully intends to follow the revised policy on tabling of treaties in Parliament with regard to a new comprehensive FTA initiative.

Along with my colleagues here today, I look forward to your questions and our discussion.

Thank you very much.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Forsyth.

Mr. Fowler, did you have opening remarks that you wanted to give?

February 5th, 2021 / 1:20 p.m.

Aaron Fowler Chief Agriculture Negotiator and Director General, Trade Agreements and Negotiations, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

No, Madam Chair.

I will be here to answer questions, thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you all very much. We appreciate that.

We'll move along to committee questions.

Mr. Aboultaif, you have six minutes.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Good afternoon to all.

Thanks for your presentation, Mr. Forsyth. Have you begun the official negotiation for the comprehensive trade agreement with the U.K.?

1:20 p.m.

Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

I'm sorry, the new post-bilateral agreement—is that what you mean?

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Yes, the comprehensive agreement, which is supposed to be the next chapter after the CUKTCA.

1:20 p.m.

Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

No, we have not yet begun those negotiations. We need to complete our domestic process in order to ensure that the TCA is in place. After that, we will have consultations with the Canadian public and with others with an interest—stakeholders, provinces and territories etc.—to determine what we would seek in a bilateral negotiation with the U.K.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Speaking of which, since you're doing domestic consultation—if we frame it that way—what were the main concerns of the general stakeholders in Canada as the negotiations began for the transitional agreement? What have you felt from the industry stakeholders and all stakeholders on this whole agreement?

1:20 p.m.

Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

Certainly, I think one of the things that we've heard from stakeholders for more than a while as we were negotiating the trade continuity agreement was to ensure stability and certainty in the U.K. marketplace. That was goal number one.

Once we got past that, I think what we started to hear more of from stakeholders was the desire to improve our market access, especially for key exports in the agricultural sector. We tend to hear from those stakeholders quite often. It would be no surprise to the committee—I think you've heard from similar witnesses—that there is a desire by agriculture and other stakeholders to see improved access to the U.K. marketplace and to make sure that the access we do negotiate is achievable. That's the other key thing that we have heard from stakeholders thus far.

We haven't started the consultations. I think there has certainly been an increased interest in the U.K. marketplace, but no one has submitted anything formal or in writing as far as what they would like to see in terms of next steps. As I said, I do speak with stakeholders quite frequently. They have indicated that they were pleased with the certainty that we were able to achieve with the TCA. They do look forward to improving whatever market access outcomes we can get in the bilateral context in the next negotiation.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

A question that will come at this time is whether any vaccine supplies will be affected by Bill C-18, which we're looking at right now in Parliament. Have you thought of that?

1:25 p.m.

Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

Certainly, it's top of mind for everyone in government right now. It is a very important issue. We have been thinking about it.

Trade and pharmaceutical products are covered by CETA and will be covered by the TCA when it is in place. I don't foresee any problems one way or another in terms of the trade agreement not covering those goods.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

The European Union banned exporting the vaccine although we have CETA in place. Did that decision surprise you at all?

1:25 p.m.

Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

Did it surprise me?

I think, as was expressed earlier this week by both the minister and my assistant deputy minister, it was disappointing. I think that we're doing our best to work with our European counterparts to make sure that these bans do not go forward. We're also looking at continuing our internal analysis to see what we can do, to see if there are other ways that we can work with the Europeans to mitigate any of these risks.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Can you think of any change or amendment to the future comprehensive agreement to prevent this from happening in the future?

1:25 p.m.

Director General for Market Access and Chief Negotiator, Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

I don't think there's anything. To the best of my knowledge, to date we have not come up with any provisions that we could put in the agreement that would prevent what they're doing. As was discussed earlier this week, what they are doing seems at least to be consistent with their WTO obligations, as well as their obligations under CETA.

As we look to the future, I think there are ways that we might want to think about things that we could do. I think we're all hopeful that there will not be another pandemic in our lifetimes, but there could well be other means to address that.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you, Mr. Forsyth.

It's on to Mr. Sheehan, for six minutes please.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much for your presentation, and an extra thank you for doing such a good job in landing us this far. In December, you were able to get us to this point, where it was just referred to us by Parliament, during this pandemic. I'd be remiss if I didn't compliment you for doing that.

The 98% tariff lift is quite amazing, and you have indicated in your reports that over the next little while, we'll get to 99%.

What kinds of businesses will benefit? Did we do any analysis on potential jobs that will be protected and created because of your work on this agreement?