Evidence of meeting #19 for International Trade in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was issues.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Trevor Kennedy  Director, Trade and International Policy, Business Council of Canada
Matthew Poirier  Director, Trade Policy, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters
Bob Fay  Managing Director, Digital Economy, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Steve Verheul  Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Kendal Hembroff  Director General, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Christine Lafrance

1:55 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters

Matthew Poirier

Certainly. As Mr. Sheehan knows, the steel sector is a very global sector, and it has fallen prey to a lot of the issues I've talked about, such as dumping, and how that affects our relationships with our trade partners like the U.S. when they're worried about transshipments into the U.S. from other countries. These are all issues that the steel sector has had to deal with.

A more robust WTO, especially the dispute settlement mechanisms, would be beneficial to them. I'm sure my friends in the steel sector would always think that it could do more to help our domestic producers, especially here in Canada, and certainly any mechanism that would help....

It comes back to that data question again too. Are we collecting the right data? Are other actors fudging the numbers to an extent that it disadvantages our industries because we can't prove otherwise in these areas?

All that, and the efforts I mentioned in my comments, would certainly help our domestic steel sector.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much. I also have a question for the Business Council of Canada. Back in 2019, I think it was, Canadian business organizations comprised of your council and the Agri-Food Trade Alliance, the Chamber of Commerce and the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters called on WTO members to “engage and intensify efforts to restore the full functionality of the Appellate Body.” They said that in the absence of a fully functioning dispute settlement system, “the World Trade Organization simply cannot do its job of protecting the rights of Canadian exporters and importers.”

To what extent and how would a fully functioning WTO dispute settlement system protect the rights of Canadian exporters and importers?

I'll start with the Business Council of Canada on that one.

1:55 p.m.

Director, Trade and International Policy, Business Council of Canada

Trevor Kennedy

In one piece, we have a temporary solution with the MPIA, which was discussed before. That covers some of our important trade partners, but it unfortunately doesn't include the United States, and that is an issue for us.

The country of origin labelling was brought up before. This came up recently in the new USTR's confirmation hearing, about recreating a COOL system that might survive a dispute at the WTO. We have concerns we're going to have to be prepared for, and while it will ensure a functioning dispute settlement mechanism with many of our trade partners, the MPIA won't cover that piece with the United States.

It is really critical that we find a way to work with the U.S. to restore the functionality of the Appellate Body in terms of the U.S.-Canada relationship and the relationship with other countries that aren't part of the MPIA. Yes, obviously this is one of a list of priorities we have with the new administration.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

It's interesting. Way back in the day, when I was in high school, then trade minister Jim Kelleher, a Conservative member, spoke to our class and started talking about what they referred to as backdoor tariffs. I think back then it was on pork and swine.

To our presenters, whoever wants to talk about that.... We study it on the trade committee as well, with some other issues around grains and such, that countries are always.... There's a chance a country will say, “Well, we don't use that particular product or vaccine or whatever on our livestock, so—”

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm sorry, Mr. Sheehan, but do you have a very short question? That was a very long question.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Okay. I will ask the Business Council of Canada, very quickly, what kind of backdoor tariffs are out there that they're aware of and that their members are concerned about, if any.

1:55 p.m.

Director, Trade and International Policy, Business Council of Canada

Trevor Kennedy

At the moment, nothing comes to mind, but there are lots of technical barriers and non-tariff barriers that our companies face.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Committee members, if there are questions for any of the witnesses, you can always write to the clerk. The clerk will ensure that the witnesses get the questions you didn't have a chance to ask at committee and get the information back to you.

Thank you very much to our witnesses. We see you a lot at this committee, and we appreciate very much the information and the good work you're doing on behalf of Canada.

We will suspend for a minute or two for our other witnesses to come on board.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I want call the meeting back to order and welcome the officials now participating in the second panel.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Steve Verheul, chief trade negotiator and assistant deputy minister, trade policy and negotiations; and Ms. Kendal Hembroff, director general, trade policy and negotiations.

The committee heard from the officials on this file on March 11, 2020, and this meeting today is to give us a bit of an update.

For the information of the committee, we will be stopping the witnesses at 2:45 so that we can do some committee business for a few minutes.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Verheul, you have the floor.

2 p.m.

Steve Verheul Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. I am pleased to be here today to provide an overview of the government’s engagement on WTO reform, including Canada’s leadership of the Ottawa Group. In particular, I’d like to highlight some significant developments that have come out of the Ottawa Group since the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic.

I am joined today by my colleague from Global Affairs Canada, Kendal Hembroff, director general of the trade negotiations bureau.

As mentioned, Kendal last spoke to you on WTO reform a year ago in March, days before things shifted to the new realities we find ourselves in today. However, the important work continues and, in fact, has intensified.

First let me provide some context. Canada is a founding member of the WTO, which was created in 1995. The WTO is critical for Canada, as it governs trade between 164 members. Its framework of rules provides the necessary stability and predictability for an open Canadian economy to thrive. It is also the cornerstone from which all our free trade agreements are built.

Even prior to the pandemic, the multilateral trading system was facing an increasingly challenging environment, characterized by the rise of protectionism and use of unilateral trade measures. This led to difficulties in a number of areas: first, a stalemate in negotiations; second, a lack of consensus on how to treat developing countries; and, third, an impasse in appointments to the WTO’s appeal mechanism.

The pandemic has served to intensify many of these challenges. Against this backdrop, it has become apparent that we need a collective recommitment to the rules-based trading system and, in particular, to finding multilateral approaches to managing the global economic impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Ottawa Group has been a key vehicle for Canada to exercise leadership on WTO reform. As a small group of like-minded WTO members, created in 2018 with the sole objective of supporting WTO reform efforts, the group has been an effective sounding board on WTO reform issues and has positioned Canada to play a leading role in advocating on behalf of Canadian interests.

Most recently, the Ottawa Group has delivered excellent results in its response to the pandemic. Since the onset of the pandemic, the Ottawa Group has met twice at the ministerial level and four times at the vice-ministerial level. A key achievement of the past year was the endorsement of the June 2020 joint statement, “Focusing Action on Covid-19”, in which Ottawa Group members committed to a six-point work plan with concrete action items.

A direct outcome from this statement was the endorsement of a communication on trade and health during the November 23 Ottawa Group ministerial meeting. The communication calls on WTO members to avoid further disruptions in the supply chains of essential goods and proposes the launch of a multilateral WTO initiative on trade and health. This communication was presented to the WTO’s General Council on December 16, and has set the stage for a busy work plan through 2021 leading up to the 12th WTO ministerial conference, which is now scheduled to take place in November of this year in Geneva.

Ottawa Group members have also collaborated on a Singapore-led initiative against export restrictions on purchases of humanitarian food aid by the World Food Programme.

Canada has also not lost sight of the ongoing WTO reform work, and we are advancing discussions within the Ottawa Group. A key priority for Canada and other members is to address the current impasse in appointments to the WTO's appeal mechanism, also known as the Appellate Body. Driven by concerns about its functioning, the United States has blocked new appointments to the Appellate Body since 2017. The last Appellate Body member's term expired in December 2020, which means that the proceedings simply freeze if a party files an appeal.

For a mid-sized country like Canada, this loss of recourse to binding dispute settlement has serious implications. We are among the top users of the WTO dispute settlement system and have been a disputing party in a total of 63 disputes—40 as a complainant, 23 as a respondent— since 1995. For example, our overwhelming win on softwood lumber at the WTO from 2019 remains in suspended animation because of the lack of an appellate body. Nevertheless, we can and do use the strong legal arguments endorsed by the WTO report in our continuing advocacy and legal work on behalf of our softwood lumber industry and workers.

This situation provoked some creative problem-solving on the part of Canada and the EU to develop a bilateral interim appeal arbitration arrangement in July of 2019. That ensures the continued enforceability of WTO decisions and provides for those decisions to be reviewed by an experienced group of arbitrators.

This arrangement inspired the establishment of the multi-party interim appeal arbitration arrangement, also known as the MPIA. This arrangement has 25 participants covering 51 countries, including the EU and China, and will apply between participating members until the Appellate Body is functional again. In the meantime, Canada's priority remains finding a permanent solution to the Appellate Body impasse. Until that occurs, this interim arrangement safeguards our rights to binding two-stage dispute settlement with willing WTO members.

Canada is also playing an active role in a number of ongoing WTO negotiations, including negotiations to limit harmful fisheries subsidies. Fundamentally, this negotiation is about helping to preserve the sustainability of global fish stocks for future generations. Members had committed to concluding negotiations by the end of 2020 in order to meet a UN sustainable development goal. However, due to continuing divergences in members' positions and logistical challenges caused by COVID-19, the negotiations are still continuing. Canada has made a number of important contributions in these negotiations, including a proposal to discipline subsidies contributing to overfishing and overcapacity.

Challenges to the multilateral approach to negotiations have also led members to pursue negotiations through plurilateral approaches involving subsets of the overall membership. For example, willing members have launched plurilateral initiatives, also known as joint statement initiatives, in such areas as e-commerce, investment facilitation for development, domestic regulation for services, and micro, small, and medium-sized enterprises. These negotiations have the potential to deliver significant benefits for Canadian businesses of all sizes. Canada is actively participating in each of these.

Canada is also keen to see work launched in such new but important areas as trade and environment and industrial subsidies, as well as to continue to advance Canadian interests regarding the elimination of trade- and production-distorting agricultural subsidies.

On the organizational side, we recently welcomed the appointment of Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala as the new director general. We are pleased that for the first time the WTO has a director general who is female and who is from an African country. We look forward to engaging the new director general on WTO reform and the important work on the response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the global economic recovery. To this end, we have invited her to attend the next ministerial meeting of the Ottawa Group on March 22.

We also look forward to engaging with the U.S. on WTO reform. While early signals from the new Biden administration have shown a willingness to engage more constructively at the WTO, we should not necessarily expect that U.S. positions on a number of issues will have drastically changed. Bilaterally, and through its leadership in the Ottawa Group, Canada will seek to find areas of alignment with the U.S. to advance key WTO reform priorities.

With that, Madam Chair, I would like to return it to you for questions.

Thank you very much.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Verheul. It's nice to have you at the committee so many times.

Ms. Gray, you have six minutes, please.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Hembroff and Mr. Verheul, for being here. It's nice to see you again.

We had a written submission from the Canadian Canola Growers Association. They had a number of recommendations in there. I wanted to highlight one of them, because it was also mentioned in our earlier witness testimony today. It was about needing to improve timelines and the “quality of notifications”. Is that something that's being looked at right now by the Ottawa Group, that you're aware of?

2:10 p.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

Yes, it certainly is something we have been working on. In fact, when we initially established the Ottawa Group, that was one of the three main elements we were looking to try to improve on. Transparency and notifications—those kinds of issues were front and centre. That remains a fundamental objective, but over the course of the past year we've also turned much of our focus to addressing issues that are specifically related to COVID-19.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Would changes discussed at the Ottawa Group meeting in November of 2020 on trade flows of essential medical supplies prevent the EU from using export controls to stop the flow of COVID-19 vaccines to Canada?

2:10 p.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

We had specific discussions around that issue. As I think you know, in November we were discussing issues related to trade and health.

This is a bit more of a long-term effort to try to make sure we have the ability to move WHO members in such a direction as to get rid of issues that are potential barriers, like customs procedures, limit the use of export restrictions—which goes directly to your point—eliminate tariffs and increase transparency. All this is with the objective of strengthening global supply chains and ensuring the free flow of essential medicines and medical supplies.

We're continuing to advance that initiative. The recent issues around export restrictions by the EU have complicated the EU's position on that particular issue, but we're continuing to push it forward.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

On that note, one of the documents submitted to the WTO by the Ottawa Group for consideration is titled “COVID-19 and Beyond: Trade and Health”. On page 3, on export controls on COVID-19 vaccines, it states, “Members will...exercise restraint in the imposition of any new export restrictions, including export taxes, on essential medical goods and on any prospective vaccine or vaccine materials.”

Which member of the Ottawa Group would have proposed this? Are you aware of that?

2:10 p.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

There was broad support for that among the Ottawa Group, particularly at that point in time. As I mentioned, we have had unanimous support on the trade and health initiative, and it has been a main focus of what we've been trying to achieve moving forward. However, as I mentioned, there is a bit of a complication more recently because of the new mechanism put in place by the EU. They are certainly assuring us that it will not be in place for a long period of time, but it is in place and it is causing some challenges.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Has Canada put forth any proposals that might prevent this? Are there any proposals that we can make within that mechanism?

2:15 p.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

Within that mechanism itself there's not much we can do, because at this point it's something where we're trying to build support for an initiative. There are no binding commitments as of yet; these are more ideas that we're putting forward. The EU—certainly from what we've been looking at—is within its rights to impose that kind of a regime. That is allowed under WTO rules. We have had some concerns about how they've been applying it, particularly with respect to whether there is differential treatment being provided to different countries.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

What's interesting is that Australia and the EU are both Ottawa Group members, yet recently we saw Italy, an EU member, through its export control measures, block AstraZeneca vaccines from being shipped to Australia. Would changes discussed at the Ottawa Group have prevented this from happening?

2:15 p.m.

Chief Trade Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

With respect to the trade and health initiative, we don't think it would necessarily have prevented that entirely. We've been saying that if there are going to be any trade restrictions imposed, they have to be very temporary and in place for a short period of time. They have to be as limited as possible, and members should try to get out of those export restrictions as soon as possible.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you.

Really briefly, Ms. Hembroff, the last time you appeared at the committee, you mentioned that China has been very engaged on work with the Ottawa Group and that members have made proposals and presentations to the Ottawa Group.

Has China made proposals to the group? If so, what are they, and is it something that could be tabled to the committee?

March 12th, 2021 / 2:15 p.m.

Kendal Hembroff Director General, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

One year seems like a long time ago.

I think you correctly recall that I would have mentioned at the time—and it still continues to be the case—that the Ottawa Group welcomes having members who are not part of the group come and use the group as a sounding board for ideas. China certainly presented to the group some of its ideas in terms of a potential initiative on plastics—in particular, plastics pollution—and that is actually an initiative that is now being discussed more broadly within the membership.

I don't know whether or not China presented an actual piece of paper at the time, or whether that is something that could be shared, but certainly we can share with you the resulting communication that ultimately Canada and other WTO members have co-sponsored, which arose out of that initial discussion on a possible initiative in terms of plastics pollution.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Ms. Hembroff.

We'll go on to Mr. Arya, please.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I have a question that is slightly different from discussing WTO work.

I recently had a meeting with the Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance, which is recommending that we create a position for a chief implementation officer. We have had many successful trade agreements with so many different countries, and if some of the resources of the trade negotiation bureau could be separated and a new trade implementation bureau formed, with a chief implementation officer.... If experienced traders like the agri-food traders find that they need a chief implementation officer, I'm quite sure that many of the small manufacturers, especially in the knowledge-based sector, need support in seeing that the benefits of these trade agreements reach them. Having a chief implementation officer would also help the trade commissioners. They could act as a single resource at Global Affairs Canada, which would help them too.