Evidence of meeting #5 for International Trade in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ceta.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Again, I think in the absence of having a deal, you have to assume you don't have one, because if you assume wrong then someone's going to have to pay for that cost at the end of the day.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
If you are Warburtons, you buy from the U.S., then, or you buy from somebody else. It's very price-sensitive I'm just assuming.
Senior Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
You'll go where it makes business sense to go.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Going forward, let's say we do somehow get this shoved through, and Ms. Bendayan talked about how we had CUSMA and how we forced that through.... I always found that really interesting. They were pressuring us to get this done, and then it went back into the House, and the Liberals kept putting up speakers and delaying it. We could never figure that out, because we said to let it go through, give it to the Senate and get it out of here before we go into lockdown.
Why do you think this government is going to force it so quickly? Is it because it's such a bad deal, just like CUSMA, that we're not going to have the proper time to actually look at it?
Senior Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Well, I think that is a question you're going to have to ask the government. I can't speak on behalf of its parliamentary affairs strategy.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I'm relatively a free trader. I want to see it to make sure it's fair and balanced; there's no question about that.
In December, they're going to throw this in front of me and say, “You have to get this done.” What if it's horrible? What am I to do?
Senior Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Well, Parliament has the right to vote as it chooses on the legislation when it arrives. That's just the matter-of-fact position that you have.
I don't really have much further to say on that aspect.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Yes, I agree, Mark. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. I don't mean to do that.
You know, we plugged our noses because, we said, it was the Donald Trump effect in the case of the U.S. It isn't the same case in the U.K. The reality is that on this file the government has not been prepared; it has been lost, asleep at the switch. Now we have a crisis happening in this sector with the U.K., and they're trying to cover their butt.
Is that fair to say, Mr. Kennedy?
Director, Policy, Business Council of Canada
I'm not a negotiator. I'm just looking at the way other countries have responded. I think we're in a very similar position to that of many of our peers, but I hope that we'll have an agreement in place—
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
What peers? Other peers have done a deal. Chile did a deal.
Director, Policy, Business Council of Canada
You can look at South Korea, for instance. It decided to have a continuity agreement in the fall of 2019.
November 16th, 2020 / 12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Director, Policy, Business Council of Canada
Its assessment was that this was the preferred approach.
Japan recently rolled over the EU-Japan EPA with the U.K.
Our perspective on this is that we would prefer to have a transitional approach rather than a final agreement. In both instances, they've negotiated a final free trade agreement.
We're racing, I think, against Australia and New Zealand, which would be competitors in some instances. I think we have an advantage, in the sense that we have an existing agreement to base our transitional deal on. I hope we have something in place before either of those countries has its free trade agreement in place.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
You need a transition agreement because you haven't consulted to know what you want in a real agreement, is that fair to say?
Liberal
Director, Policy, Business Council of Canada
We've been discussing the transitional context, so I can't discuss a longer-term free trade agreement.
Liberal
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses.
My first question will go to Mr. Hassan Yussuff. You mentioned that when it comes to labour, women, immigrant workers, these become your priority. It's my understanding that over the past five years this government has signed CUSMA, CETA, CPTPP, and the government's priority has been these. When you put in place a lens of gender equality, the LGBTQ community's rights and migrant workers' rights, we have made significant progress moving in that direction. Do you agree with that perspective?
Also, which one is better than the others? We have to follow the same tradition moving forward with the U.K.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
Look back to the most recent agreement with Canada, the U.S. and Mexico and the process leading up to it. We have made strides. The labour provisions are an integral part of the agreement. The enforceable mechanisms of the agreement are of course very clearly laid out, with obligations and penalties should the countries not live up to their responsibilities.
CUSMA has been for us, in terms of labour provisions, much more significant than any other agreement negotiated so far.
It is a new agreement. Its recognition and time will tell how effective it is and, more importantly, whether it is the new model. Clearly, I think it demonstrates that you can do better.
Of course, the pressure in the negotiation of CUSMA was there for everybody to see. We had an existing agreement with Mexico and the United States, and we know that it was a failure in regard to labour provisions. Clearly, this agreement demonstrates a significant accomplishment in some ways.
As to its effectiveness, time will tell. If you were looking for a model, this would be the model going forward, because it recognizes key and fair components. Equally, of course, it exacerbates...and more importantly shows that there's a way to go forward that can enhance the protection of workers in our respective countries.
At the same time, it allows for our countries to trade in a fair mechanism that ensures that workers are going to benefit from this agreement.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Agnew, when I look at the study done by Global Affairs, it clearly shows that in the short term of three years that CETA has been in place, our exports to some of the European nations have gone up from 20% to 33%. That tells me that the trade we have with the nations where we have an agreement in place is better than with the ones where we don't.
Do you see it as important to have rather than not have trade relations with other countries? Does it make a positive difference in Canadian businesses and Canadian workers' lives?
Director, Policy, Business Council of Canada
I guess I could hop in first.
Absolutely; Canada was one of the first countries, certainly of the advanced economies, to have a comprehensive trade deal with the European Union. You still have many jurisdictions where, for example, as I mentioned, countries like New Zealand and Australia are still trying to conclude their own bilateral agreements with the EU. We've now had ours in provisional application, and we do have a first mover advantage. I think clearly the numbers show that this has been beneficial for Canadian exporters. We want to maintain that market access. The U.K. is a big chunk of that for our access under CETA.
Senior Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
I think what you said actually validates why it's so important to get this Canada-U.K. deal over the line. If CETA matters, then certainly what is 40% of our trade to the EU matters. That's why companies do need certainty on what's going to happen on January 1.
Liberal
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to go back to my previous question for Mr. Agnew or Mr. Kennedy. I said that Canadian companies hadn't made the most of the European market. I asked them how this issue could be addressed in an agreement with the United Kingdom. The response focused on the promotion required and on the need for the government to provide guidance and education to facilitate access to this market.
Wasn't there a structural issue regarding the non-tariff barriers on the European side? Could we expect this to happen again in the United Kingdom?
Director, Policy, Business Council of Canada
I guess I can jump in first.
Obviously, the trade commissioner service has a large role to play here, as with any of our trade agreements. They're a great resource available to Canadian businesses. I think that's the most obvious place where we'd want to see more focus. Actually, I think there has been a shift in focus in the last couple of years towards SMEs and helping them to understand and navigate our trade agreements. We'll see what this agreement looks like, I guess, looking toward the future-oriented agreement with the U.K., but I certainly hope it will be accessible to businesses of all sizes.
