International Trade Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2024

[Kim Campbell]

The survey was very basic. It asked, “Would you support a delay request?”, and 80% said yes and 20% said no.

Again, just hearing the conversation here, we understand that 20% are just tired and want to go, but they've also had the opportunity to prepare, so to answer your question, that was the response.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

To Ms. Upton, from Deloitte, you're responsible for this.

There has been testimony today, and we've heard in testimony in the last few days that members aren't ready yet. What does that say to you? What are you hearing?

[Louise Upton]

I will give you a bit of context here. The solution has been measured and thought out properly. It has been tested with over 7,000 test scenarios. As you would have heard from some of the other trade chain partners, there has been training. They have been involved in testing.

As I said, in my 30 years of doing this, I understand that there's always trepidation when turning on a new solution. There's always some uncertainty. There are always organizations, people and employees who are going to feel that the solution is simply not ready. In some cases, it's important to move forward and then deal with the issues that may potentially arise as you go forward. We believe in this particular instance that the solution has been tested very thoroughly. We are ready to support the solution once it is turned on and live.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Ms. Upton, your stakeholders do not feel that way. You are the vendor, being paid by the government to ensure that we have stakeholder readiness. We're hearing from these stakeholders that they are not ready.

Why has Deloitte not ensured stakeholder readiness? How many training sessions have you had? Are you hearing from these industry people? Are you getting back to them?

We're hearing about delays. We're hearing there are big problems from the Deloitte side. How do you answer to the fact that 80% of importers and exporters are saying they're not ready, yet you're in charge of that?

[Louise Upton]

As I said, the solution itself has been tested. We've been through over 7,000 test scenarios.

To be more direct in terms of where things stand, from a readiness perspective, much of that work is the work of CBSA, like training and change readiness. We've been supporting in that role, but a lot of that role has belonged to CBSA, in terms of their role—

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Just to make that clear, Deloitte has no responsibility for that, and it's CBSA's failing that importers and exporters are saying they're not trained and not ready for this. Is that correct? Is this CBSA's or Deloitte's responsibility?

[Louise Upton]

We continue to support the CBSA through certification—ensuring our clients and their clients are certified—and through testing with the various client experience simulation tests that have happened. We have supported them and made sure that the right clients have been included in the testing, and we have run the scenarios.

We continue to support them through that certification process by ensuring that the clients that represent 99.6% of the trade volume are ready. We believe that the solution is ready and that we are ready to provide support once the system goes live on October 21.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

What we're hearing, again, from stakeholders is that they're not ready. They're not getting good communication. They're not getting emails returned. We heard today that sometimes it's taking a few days to get those emails back.

How does Deloitte respond to accusations of poor communication? What specific steps are going to be taken to rectify this?

[Louise Upton]

I think that's a question that's better posed to CBSA, which ultimately manages the communications with the trade chain partners, for the most part.

I would say, again, that there have been multiple touchpoints and multiple meetings. I know from conversations with CBSA and some of the participation in meetings...there have been over 120 different one-on-one meetings with trade chain partners since we were last at committee, to help prepare them and to help manage communication.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Just to clarify, were you completing those meetings or was CBSA?

[Louise Upton]

CBSA was leading and we were supporting in those particular meetings.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Just for clarity, we have major problems with communication, which I think is why we have a motion to delay this. This is a major problem with communication. Deloitte's getting half a billion dollars to roll this out. You're saying the breakdown is with CBSA and Deloitte. Is that correct?

Deloitte does not have a responsibility for the 80% of importers and exporters that find that this system is not ready and they don't have good communication.

[Louise Upton]

What I'm saying is that we feel that the solution is ready. We feel that the support processes are ready, and we will continue to be ready post the system go-live.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Mr. Sidhu, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I want to ask Ms. Miller this.

You mentioned the delegation of authority on this CARM portal and that UPS and FedEx.... When someone registers, maybe they haven't given the delegation to certain companies.

Can two companies be delegated? In the industry, sometimes people will use the courier companies for courier shipments, and then they'll use an air cargo company for different....

Can two delegations be given?

[Barb Miller]

Yes, there's no limit to the delegations, and there are levels of the delegation that you can provide as well.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Coming back to the service standards, we're hearing it's a couple of hours, a couple of weeks or a couple of days.

Can we maybe get it in writing from the witnesses here in terms of some examples, whether it's orders in council, whether it's an HS code error they're getting back that it doesn't exist, or whether it's a duties and taxes calculation from those that are testing the system?

Having it in writing would be helpful in enabling us to go through it, because we're hearing different things from different witnesses.

Do you think a posted service standard would be helpful from CBSA? That would be in terms of.... If it's these issues, they'll get it resolved within 48 hours; if it's something that's a little more complicated, it'll take....

Would that be helpful?

Can I hear from the witnesses here today?

[Kim Campbell]

Absolutely. We look for your support in that. We've been asking that for a very long time.

[Barb Miller]

As you guys know, I'm a big supporter of going live. I think that we cannot ignore not only the financial implication for CBSA, but also for me, as a stakeholder and as a business that has over $150,000 invested.

In that one or two days, my first question has to go to the service provider. If I have a problem with calculation of duties and taxes, the question is not for CBSA. The first question is for our service provider, to find out if there's a problem in the software that has been developed that goes between CBSA and—

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I have to correct you there, Ms. Miller.

If the question goes to CBSA, CBSA would then interact with Deloitte, which is the service provider. We wouldn't be able to do that. Yes, the question could go directly to them, but the agreement is between CBSA and Deloitte.

[Barb Miller]

If I can correct you, that's actually not correct on the broker's side.

This is an association whereby, as brokers, we communicate with CBSA through service providers. Those service providers have been provided an ECCRD that has been given to, for example, Descartes or CANdata. As brokers, we use those service providers. If there are issues with the technological aspect, we go to those service providers, who would then communicate with CBSA.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

You wouldn't actually go directly to Deloitte. You would go to the service provider, and the service provider would then go to Deloitte or through CBSA, through the agreement. That's my understanding from my meetings with CBSA.

[Barb Miller]

Yes. As a broker and as an importer—we are both, and we have Tariff Hippo, which is a software—we would not have any direct communication at all with Deloitte. In fact, if we have a problem with our carrier, for lack of a better word—if it's CANdata or whoever it may be—we would expect them to communicate with the TCCU of CBSA, which is split out between CARM and that. It would be two different areas.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

For us parliamentarians, we would probably, traditionally, go to CBSA and say, “What's going on here?” I'm speaking from my role here in Parliament, and even in your role. You would go to the service provider, who would then go to, possibly, Deloitte or CBSA.

To come back to it, we know the cost, as my colleague asked here.... The cost is roughly $30 million to delay this by a few months. That's a lot of money on the public purse, which we heard Deloitte speak about today, and I think CBSA has also mentioned. I think it's important for committee members and those watching to know that there's a cost to delaying this, as well, of $30 million. We heard from many of the witnesses here that some members have apprehensions, are not ready, and some members are ready. How do we bridge that gap? Is it the service standards? Is it enabling more companies to set up faster? As UPS said, there are only 50%.... Ms. Bilodeau, did you say that 50% of your clients are on board?

[Tammy Bilodeau]

It's only 20% of ours, but less than 50% in the express carrier industry.