International Trade Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for the very important testimony they're providing.

I want to specifically address some questions to Mr. Shevchenko.

Andriy, first of all, duzhe dyakuyu. It's great to see you. Thank you for being here. I wish we were seeing you in different circumstances, my friend. Thank you for all of your service on behalf of Ukraine here in Canada and the important work you did over many years as the ambassador of Ukraine here. I very thoroughly enjoyed working with you.

You mentioned that Ukraine is the country of brains and grains. I would add “brawn” as a third moniker, Andriy, to give it a natural hat trick. It's a country of brains, brawn and grain. Clearly, you've shown with your courage what your country is capable of in terms of standing up to Russia. You have our unanimous view that is similar to yours about Bucha. We just passed a unanimous consent motion in today's Parliament about the massacre at Bucha.

Andriy, you know that we've been stepping up in ways that I thought I'd never see, to be candid, in terms of incredible military assistance; an immigration program; humanitarian aid; sanctions against no less than 700 entities and individuals, including Putin and his inner circle, including Belarusians; aspects of the SWIFT system—the list is long.

What I want to ask you about is in terms of taking this next step with the trade agreement. You mentioned ICT a couple of times. Where can we specifically harness that? I know what I learned in the time I was there and you entertained me and others in 2018. There were such things as cyberwarfare, the knowledge that you have on the ground in the IT sector and how to deal with cybersecurity in Ukraine. Is there potential collaboration that we could see in that area with the expansion of CUFTA?

It's over to you, Andriy.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

Mr. Virani, thank you so much for the way you care about Ukraine and for this very precise and thoughtful question.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that Canada can and will benefit from this very close co-operation with our ICT sector. I can give you just one number. Today, when we're in the middle of this war, 89% of the Ukrainian ICT specialists are fully paid in terms of their salaries. That means that even under these absolutely tragic and difficult circumstances, they keep doing their work. Most of them complete their contracts, which are coming mostly from North America, from Canada and the United States. After they're done with their everyday job, they go and unload humanitarian cargo or they do cyberwar, protecting Ukraine from cyber-attacks from Russia and fighting back.

I'm telling you this in such detail just for you to imagine the IT sector in the Ukraine—how strong it is, how resilient it is and how sustainable it is. For those people, it's not just about brave and very professional Ukrainians are. I think it's priceless when it comes to partnerships and to business contexts. We want Canada to greatly benefit from this partnership, and you're in a very good position for that.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Andriy.

Building upon that, and working Mr. Agnew into the conversation a bit, I find it a little puzzling, frankly, that everything we're learning about the impact of the various measures we're taking is that it's having a crippling impact upon the ruble, upon Russian interest rates, on defaults, etc., and yet we're seeing this disconnect between the impact it's having on the Russian economy and the nature of what's happening on the war front.

Can you explain that disconnect? A speculative concern is that the Russian people are hurting and Putin is just ignoring it. Can you walk us through the impact the sanctions are having and how we transit that impact into a direct consequence on the war?

Mr. Agnew, perhaps you could go first, and then Mr. Shevchenko.

[Mark Agnew]

I think part of it is that the sanctions take time to work. The impacts are not felt instantaneously. Particularly if you're looking at currency reserves, as I understand it, the Russian government still has some of its reserves at its disposal.

Of course, there's the reality that not every country has placed sanctions on Russia. Unfortunately, there are a lot of large markets that have not gone down that route. Canada, NATO and the western alliance have done it, but as long as you have countries willing to do business with Russia and not place sanctions, there will be an additional funding route for the Putin government.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Andriy, could you add to that?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

I have two thoughts, Arif. First, those sanctions do work. Even before the invasion, there had been a tremendous impact. In 2013 the GDP per capita in Russia was about $16,000 U.S. annually. In 2021 it was $10,000 U.S. per capita—40% less for every Russian. It is working, and it will work in the future. The sanctions take time.

The other thought is very simple. Putin in many ways is not the source of the problems we face. He is a reflection of Russian society. He is a reflection of the Russian elite and of the Russian white population. That means that this threat is existential not just for us. It will stay with us for decades and maybe generations to come.

That is why we have to do sanctions very seriously. This is no time for half measures. Thanks to Canada for being a true leader in bringing this international coalition together.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

I know Minister Joly has been working tremendously hard on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Virani, you're—

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I believe I had nine seconds, Madam Chair, but thank you.

Thank you very much, Andriy.

Thank you, Mr. Agnew.

I had my timer on, Judy. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Good. In nine seconds, whatever you can get in, go right ahead.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you have six minutes, please.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Madam Chair, since our guest witness Mr. Bouchard is experiencing technical difficulties and can't access the meeting, may I switch turns with someone scheduled to speak later?

If the problem can't be resolved, I will adjust my questions accordingly and ask another witness. I'm trying to save some time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay, we will go to Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To follow up with regard to cybersecurity, Mr. Shevchenko, we have had here on the Hill and we will again have Ukrainian interns. I think there will be another group coming in very soon.

There seem to be a lot of young people with good qualities and capabilities who could be part of cybersecurity in the future.

Is that something you would agree with? We have probed this a little before, but I think that's one of the things we could really enhance, not only just for military operations, but also for banking, public institutions and other types of vulnerable infrastructure, whether attacks be from Russia or elsewhere.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

I think it's very interesting and very important that we have focused so much on human capital when it comes to the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement. I think it's a very fair approach.

When it comes to Ukraine, it is number one in terms of literacy on the European continent. That explains a bit about why we care so much about human capital and about labour rights.

When it comes to ICT co-operation and the IT sector, I think, yes, Canada is in a very good position to benefit from this co-operation, in particular because of excellent technical assistance programs that Canada has been working on with Ukraine.

You have invested a lot into creating very good business contacts and business networks between Ukraine and Canada, and that will pay off.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Canada has a program called “coding for veterans” to help Afghanistan veterans go through that. It's a working model where we have been quite successful. Do you think there would be interest from individuals to take up such a program?

What ends up happening, without getting into too many details, is that they are enrolled in a program, and the program is sponsored by the government. They get into cybersecurity training that leads them to the private sector. There are former military individuals and some who are there if they have had a family member in the military before. They go through about a one-year process. They get paid for it. Then they become professional in cybersecurity, authenticated through the University of Ottawa and other universities.

Is that something you think there would be an uptake for on the part of Ukrainians, if there was a mission or some type of program developed on that?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

Yes, and on a broader scale, I have a feeling that, when it comes to services, Canada under-trades with Ukraine. There is a huge potential wherever you take a look.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you for that.

The next question I want to ask is just in general. With regard to other nations, can we help offset some of the negative consequences from the different types of sanctions that are taking place? Does anything come to rise stronger than anything else in terms of a sanction that's affecting a neighbouring country of Ukraine—whether it's Poland or somewhere else—that is something that's low-hanging fruit, so to speak, that Canada could do to improve our access to markets and support them to help you?

I will just put it out there in general. I'm looking for any nations, products, or services that we could help with right away that would be low-hanging fruit, so to speak—easy to do right away, to help the citizens of Ukraine.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

When it comes to sanctions, my short answer would be: Follow the money. I think Canada is doing the very right thing when it goes ahead with all the sanctions that deal with the financial institutions of Russia and the soaring debt with SWIFT. You are doing the right thing, and I think we should continue.

Yes, this is the way we can put proper pressure on the Russian economy. We should make sure that it stops and that it cannot finance its work.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Would any other witnesses like to intervene? Okay.

I have one last question, then. With regard to the oligarchs and the sanctions, would it be a stronger position for Canada to have a duration of time for actual sanctions, or should we just leave them indefinite? Should we be looking at five years, 10 years, or a recovery period of the effects they have had in terms of full recovery and then further?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

I think it's so early to talk about that. We still need to do so much to make sure we stop this war.

Again, I have a feeling that the nature of this war is not just about personal crazy steps by the leader of this country, but more about what the Russian public believes in. It makes it an existential threat for all of us, and we'll have to deal with this for decades to come.

The questions you asked are very fair, but maybe we need more time to answer that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Madam Chair, I'll just finish by saying that since I've been doing this, the person who runs the coding for veterans service said this is actually a perfect fit for training further Ukrainians with cybersecurity. Hopefully we can follow up on that possibility. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

That sounds very exciting.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, Mr. Bouchard is still not able to connect.

Do you want to go ahead now, or do you want to hold back?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I will go now, but first, I have a question for you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay. Go ahead.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

If we don't hear Mr. Bouchard's testimony today, can we be sure he will be invited to attend a future meeting?