International Trade Committee on May 30th, 2022

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Madam Chair, can we have the text of the motion reread slowly, so that we can all write it down, since it's apparently impossible to get a written version of it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We'll ask Mr. Baldinelli or the clerk to read it.

Mr. Scarpaleggia, you had your hand up at one point.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I was curious about the procedure for distributing notices in writing. I know in our committee they have to be in both languages, but I don't know if it's the same in every committee.

However, I think that's been resolved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Normally, they have to be given and they have to be in both official languages. However, again, it's up to the committee whether or not they choose to deal with it in the language in which it is put on the table and whether it's read verbally into the record and translated at that time.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Madam Chair, my hand is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Arya.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I agree with what Mr. Masse has said. I served on the public accounts committee for four years. The Auditor General's office has a system of selecting the departments and the Crown agencies to audit and not to audit. As individual members of Parliament and as a committee, we can submit our requests. However, the Auditor General's office has its own criteria that it goes through in making the selection of which Crown agencies it will audit next.

It makes an exception from its prepared plan when there are exceptional circumstances related to any department or any Crown agency. I don't foresee anything here. There is no harm in making a request from the committee, but it would not in any way influence the Auditor General to pick up and audit both of these Crown corporations immediately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to suspend for a few minutes. We have obtained copies, so we'll ensure it's distributed to all of the members and to the members online as well.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

There's a vote coming up, so no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay.

We're going to suspend quickly, distribute the notice, and then move on with the meeting.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You don't need to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We can suspend for a minute while you get a copy, so everybody knows exactly what they're voting on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting back to order.

Everyone has received the notice electronically. I'm going to ask the clerk if she would please read the motion out.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Chair, as a substitute, maybe I wasn't included on the list, as I have not received it yet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I apologize. You'll have it in a second.

Have all the members received it, please?

Okay.

Madam Clerk, would you please read it out?

[The Clerk]

Madam Chair, it says, “Given that the committee has had only one day to examine the estimates of both Invest in Canada and the Canadian Commercial Corporation, the committee requests that the Auditor General examine both agencies and their expenditures to ensure they are meeting their mandates and providing value for the expenditures being allocated to both, and that the Auditor General present his findings to the committee and make his findings public.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Is there any discussion on the motion?

Mr. Virani.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I would make three points. One is procedural. Notwithstanding the interventions made by Mr. Hoback, I think, as a matter of courtesy, it's generally beneficial to distribute things in both official languages in writing prior to.... I know that can't always be observed, but I think that's important.

The second point is that the first line of the text of the motion says “Given the committee had only one day to examine the estimates”. If the committee members, of whom the Liberals are not the majority, wanted more days to examine the estimates, I think that's incumbent upon us as committee members to arrange our scheduling such that more days were allocated for the study of the estimates. That should not be a backstop for addressing a motion that is coming at the 11th hour.

The third and last point is what I find to be the most important. We've heard from Mr. Masse, Mr. Arya, and I think we will hear from others about the institutional independence of the Office of the Auditor General. Mr. Masse went so far as to say the office will decide what to study, because it is independent, as it always has been and always should be.

That being said, there is something to be said about members of Parliament, elected officials who are partisan by nature, either directing or being seen or perceived to direct the Auditor General's office in terms of what it should study. Therefore, regardless of whether the Auditor General is bound by the terms of any motion that is passed by this committee, I think it is important as an issue of parliamentary procedure and in terms of safeguarding institutions that are independent and that oversee Parliament, that we not actually direct or be seen to be directing institutions such as the Office of the Auditor General. On that basis, I think there are serious concerns with this type of motion.

I'll leave it at that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, I did follow procedure through and through. I talked to our only Frenchman, the Bloc member, before I came forward, to make sure he was comfortable that I was doing it in one language, the reason being that the motion came out of this meeting. It was not something that was prepared last night or this morning; it was actually prepared and handwritten to the clerk.

The reason we're asking for it is very clear. We just feel we didn't have enough time with what we heard today. This would be a good opportunity for the Auditor General, if he or she so chooses, to look at this. Every once in a while, the Auditor General will ask the members of Parliament about different departments or Crown corporations that they should actually do an audit on, so this is not out of the norm by any means. In fact, if the Auditor General chooses not to, that's up to her. She has full independence, but this is something the committee can request. I think it would be good for both the department and the committee to have that type of audit done. I think it's good value for taxpayers to understand what they're doing well, what they're doing wrong and what they can do better, because I remember that whenever an auditor general reports, you'll see recommendations; and most departments will take on those recommendations and make improvements to the department. This is with the intent of making a stronger department and making things more efficient for taxpayers.

I think a lot of people would criticize us if we didn't do this, because we had one only day to go through the estimates and that's the process that we follow on the estimates. It's a goofy process that Canadians don't understand, and even here, when you look at it, you wonder how in the heck we can approve so much money with one hour's notice.

In this situation, I think it would be prudent to have the Auditor General's office, if it so chooses, just take a quick peek at it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Baldinelli.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To Mr. Virani's point, I'd also like to thank Mr. Masse and Mr. Arya for their comments.

I wrote the motion in such a way as to make it a request. We're not compelling the Auditor General or in any way seeking to impede the independence of the Auditor General. Again, it's a simple request. With respect to the motion, we wrote it just based on the testimony and the fact that we're meeting today for only one hour.

I would like to say that I believe a friendly amendment to that motion would be because the Auditor General is a female and not male. I wrote it as “he” instead of “her”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You should always write with the presumption that it's a woman.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Fair enough. Absolutely. I apologize for that mistake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Is there any further discussion?

Mr. Sheehan, your hand is up.