International Trade Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Jim Diodati]

That's a tough one. Both of them were very detrimental to our border.

I did spend a lot of time on the phone with Mayor Dilkens. It was devastating to us. For us at land border crossings, it was horrible. It made the delays four times as long and even when there was much less congestion. It was absolutely the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Mr. Arya, please, for five minutes.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We all agree that the health and safety of Canadians is the utmost priority for all of us around here—for all political parties and all MPs. Canada did well compared with other G7 countries and compared with most other countries because of all the measures that all levels of government implemented, with the co-operation of all Canadians. I think that compared with others, we are in better shape. Let's recognize that.

There is no one single measure that was more important there. It can be vaccination. It can be social distancing. It can be education. It can be ArriveCAN. It can be putting restrictions on people coming from abroad. All of these measures were added together for these fantastic results, compared with other countries.

On ArriveCAN, I did travel twice this summer. The first time, I used the Toronto airport. I was told that, when going, there would be a lot of rush and I would have to wait for hours to get through security, and that when coming back, because of ArriveCAN and other things, there would be long delays getting out of the airport. However, I can tell you that this was the shortest time I spent in the Toronto airport in July. When going, I went four hours early. I went in within 20 minutes and then had to sit in the terminal for all that time. Coming back, it was the same thing. It was the fastest thing. I used the Vancouver airport in August. It was the same thing there.

I'm not saying that others did not face delays, but my personal experience was that ArriveCAN or other measures did not contribute to delays, at least on my part.

Ms. Pasher, you mentioned that there has been a drop in and resistance from—and maybe I'm paraphrasing you—international travellers because of various measures. The pandemic has affected businesses throughout the world. The labour shortage has affected businesses throughout the world. The supply chain has affected businesses throughout the world. There are so many things that have affected businesses.

My specific question to you is about ArriveCAN. How much did ArriveCAN contribute to the drop in international passengers coming to Canada—ArriveCAN only?

[Monette Pasher]

I would say it really depends on what time frame you're looking at. You talked about Pearson and your experience this July and your experience in Vancouver. The challenges at our airports were more acute in April and May—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I'm sorry, but I have limited time. My question was very specific. How much did ArriveCAN contribute to the drop in international air passengers?

[Monette Pasher]

I don't have a specific number for that. I would say that ArriveCAN existed because of the vaccine mandate. It was an application to facilitate that. That was how people were getting through our border.

Ms. Potter may have a more definite number on that.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I'm sorry, but I'm still speaking to you. You mentioned that ArriveCAN actually eased the process given the delays that were occurring at the airports. Is that correct?

[Monette Pasher]

I'm saying the technology application eased it because we had to have.... The government mandated vaccines, and because the government—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Okay. Now that ArriveCAN is not mandatory, do you foresee a tremendous jump in international air travel during the coming months?

[Monette Pasher]

We're hearing from our business community, the tourism industry and our partners that U.S. travellers are willing—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

You are the airport authority.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Let the witness finish her answer, please.

[Monette Pasher]

U.S. travellers are more willing to come to Canada now. They're more willing to consider our destination for events and business events because they don't have the risk of being randomly tested, potentially being positive and having to quarantine. Because these measures are removed, there's more appetite—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Once again, you are speaking to other quarantine measures. We are discussing ArriveCAN. That is the question here.

Specifically to ArriveCAN, now that ArriveCAN is not there, do you think that is a major factor for international air travellers coming in?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Please give a very brief answer.

[Monette Pasher]

Yes, I do. ArriveCAN was there because of the vaccine mandate, so they're connected. You can't just—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Okay, I have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Go ahead, Mr. Savard-Tremblay, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You have painted a picture of the consequences of the measures and ArriveCAN for your sector. In your study, have you isolated what was caused by ArriveCAN and what was caused by the other measures? How can you separate out all of that and say with certainty that ArriveCAN was the problem?

[Beth Potter]

ArriveCAN certainly had a huge impact at the land border crossings. These were crossings where people were not used to having to make any other kind of declaration. They would drive up and have a conversation with the customs border agent, and would show their documentation coming into Canada, whether it was their driver's licence or their passport. The ArriveCAN app and the requirements of the ArriveCAN app had a massive effect. We were seeing a drop of 50% or more in the number of Americans coming into the country, and the reason was the ArriveCAN app.

When you look at the other problems, you also had some glitches with the app. You had travellers getting messages telling them that they had to quarantine when they didn't. You had travellers out there trying to reroute how they were using the app in order to get away from these quarantine notices. That was a huge challenge.

When you look at the other restrictions, and certainly the proof of vaccination and the random testing, they created uncertainty for international travellers. I mentioned in my opening remarks that international travel this year was down 53%. That's $12 billion that didn't come into the country because of travel requirements.

As an example, Monette was talking earlier about business events. We had U.S. events in Canada, and on average, we were only getting 60% of attendees. Forty per cent were staying home, and when they were asked about this, it was because of the restrictions and the requirements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to direct my next question to Mayor Diodati.

What you said about your dad really rang true for me. You said he is in his eighties and only has a flip phone. My dad is 75 and he doesn't have any phone. Prior to the pandemic he was driving down to the United States to visit family quite a bit, and it was such a hassle for him to use the app that he's avoided those trips since then.

Now that the app is optional at the land border, do you foresee it continuing? I've heard the stories about border agents essentially having to be IT help desks, and that is causing long delays at the land borders. With the app being optional at the land border, do you foresee those delays continuing to be a concern, or do you foresee a future in which we can move forward with some travellers using the app at the land border and others using a more manual process?

[Jim Diodati]

I like the idea that it's optional in the same way that NEXUS is, and time will tell. Early on I resisted NEXUS, but I became a convert because it definitely made things more efficient because you could go to NEXUS-only lines. If it is done well, and they fix the glitches and the problems....

The other thing I'll say about it—and my family saw this first-hand—is that the app forces you to lie. It wants to know your quarantine address. Day trippers who come to Niagara Falls don't have an address, because they're going home the same day, so they have to lie. Some of them were putting in the Peace Bridge address. These are law-abiding citizens, people who don't want to lie but whose only other choice was to not come here.

Yes, going forward, we will recover. There's no doubt about that because resilience is kind of built into our DNA. It seems there is always some kind of challenge. The question is, how long is it going to take and how many billions are we going to lose? How many lives have been disrupted because people can't cross now or they're too old to cross? I do think having it as an option is good if they can fix the glitchiness.

The last thing I'll say is about the border. The big challenge is the fact that there are competing cell towers along the U.S.-Canadian border and the coverage is spotty at best, so it's a real challenge when you're on that bridge trying to do anything with your phone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Rood, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Like my colleagues who spoke before me, I was one of the ones who were calling for the scrapping of the app, and for a very long time. Coming from a community that is very close to and borders the United States, across from Michigan, my office was inundated for months and months on a daily basis with dozens of phone calls and emails. Senior citizens were coming into my office in tears, totally distraught because they weren't able to cross the border. They didn't have a smart phone. They didn't have a data plan on a phone. They had already been separated from their loved ones for a couple of years and just wanted life to get back to normal.

This app had devastating impacts on the tourism industry along Lake Huron and also along Mitchell's Bay. I think about Wallaceburg. I think about Mitchell's Bay, Walpole Island, all the way up the St. Clair River through Sarnia and all the way along southern Lake Huron, which I represent.

We didn't have boaters coming in the summertime, as we should have, because the app was a major impediment to their coming across. You don't necessarily have cellphone service out on the lake. People didn't have cellphones, as I said, with data when they were crossing land borders, so there was a very big series of frustrations for a lot of the people and our businesses in Lambton—Kent—Middlesex.

I witnessed many businesses empty at night. During evenings on the streets of Grand Bend, which would be a booming tourist town full of people from Michigan, much like Niagara Falls, there were no people there.

Mayor, I can sympathize with you given what your city has gone through. I witnessed how border lineups were non-existent coming across through New York from Buffalo to Niagara Falls, and when there were only a few cars, it took an hour because people were having issues with the app. The frustration is real.

I'd like to ask Ms. Potter a question.

We have heard the Canadian Federation of Independent Business say that approximately one in six businesses is considering closing its doors even still because of the devastating impacts of ArriveCAN. I'm just wondering if you could speak to any instances of this, or to what you've seen from small businesses and the impacts of this app and what the cost may have been to the small business industry, which is what most of our tourist towns are made up of—very small independent businesses.