International Trade Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2022

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It was a long period. Can you give me a month or a more exact timeline? There must have been a time when you picked up the phone to call the ambassador or a minister to say, “We have a problem here.”

[Gian Paolo Vescio]

I could find out for you. I don't know the exact date—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Give me a sense. Was it October or November?

[Gian Paolo Vescio]

Yes, probably in and around the fall, in October or November, in and around then.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Okay. If you get an exact date, I'd appreciate it.

The reason I ask is that the minister asked me, a member of the NDP and a member of the Bloc to go down with her to talk about this. I've done this in the past with the Liberal government and have been very successful with Mr. Easter or Mr. Leslie when we've gone into meetings together to talk from a Canadian perspective about why this would be a bad piece of legislation or that we need to get changes.

This time when I went down there, it seemed really disorganized. There was no game plan in place. The minister had her own meetings that we weren't included in. We were stuck with different consuls generals in their meetings, which was okay, but I was in a meeting with a bunch of Republicans who were already going to vote against it. I looked at that and said, “Where am I contributing to fighting for our Canadian automotive manufacturers?” I found it frustrating.

Now, when you talk about this bill still sitting there, dwindling, one of the comments I had from different members of the Senate that we met with was, “Why are you guys inserting yourselves now?” They asked, “Why didn't you insert yourselves in the writing stage so it actually could have been changed?” There was not a genuine thought going in to say, “Let's screw Canada over and put this in here.” They just didn't think of us. Can you give me some idea on why it would be that way?

[Gian Paolo Vescio]

I can't really make a comment on timelines or rationales. What I can say is that in the meetings that I've been privy to, being down in Washington, and making our counterparts—our senatorial and Republican representatives—live to the issue, which.... A lot of times, because the bill is so big and there are so many pieces to it, it's easy for it to pass through the eyes. I can say that once the issue was raised with a significant amount of vigour, a lot of the representatives who we were speaking to really were taken aback and said, “Okay, we're really going to consider this.”

I can even say that as of right now, Flavio, my president, is in Washington on this very matter. We're in the middle of it. The process is continuing.

I appreciate that—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It's a minority government here. That's where I get frustrated. It is a minority government here, so if he's down there in Washington now, I want to help him, but if he's not talking to me, I can't give him any help. There are members on the Republican side who we could link to and assist with, but nobody's asking us to, and when we are asked to, we're kind of put in a corner. How do I help you when I'm in a corner?

Where I'm getting really frustrated is that I see how serious this is, and I understand the dynamics in Washington. I understand that we're going to be going into the midterms, and we're going to lose our ability to talk to anybody in the House there within the next month or two. I also understand that a lame duck president is probably going to be a result of the midterms and the Democrats feel they need to get this through now.

It doesn't seem to me that this government or the bureaucrats down in Washington understand the importance of politically active politicians who talk to other politicians and what we can do help you in this industry. How do I get that message across? Do you think Mr. Volpe could get that message across to the minister?

[Gian Paolo Vescio]

The way we operate at the APMA, we have no secrets. We do everything in public. The phone line is always open if you're ever looking to have a more in-depth discussion with Mr. Volpe and our team.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It's a two-way street.

[Gian Paolo Vescio]

I would say that I can appreciate your wanting to do a pre-op on our processes or on the processes that have taken place with this issue, but the issue is still alive. We're in the middle of it. It's still continuing. We're still going to continue working closely with government on both levels to make sure that the measures that are adverse to Canada aren't enacted.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is you have a strong group of people on the opposition side—the Bloc, the NDP and me—who want to help you but are not being engaged.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

It's on to Mr. Miao for five minutes.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to speak a bit more about how the Canada-U.S. relationship in the electrical vehicle industry has directly impacted Canadians who work in the industry. From this conversation I understand there's a lot of reliance on electric batteries and chips that are coming from outside North America. Do we have any plans on making an investment and what would be the timeline if we were to create parts like this in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Who would like to answer that question?

[Daniel Breton]

I could say that we could inspire ourselves from what's being done in Europe. They decided to work together on the ZEV supply chain for Europe. In a couple of years things have really accelerated. Now they're on their way moving forward and building battery plants. They are moving at a very fast pace. They're actually passing in front of us.

I think that we have to see that the timeline is short. Right now things are evolving really quickly regarding this new technology. What we see is that if we keep talking about this and we don't have a plan and we don't work with the U.S., we'll be left in the dust, because China is way ahead, Korea is way ahead and Europe now is really serious about this.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Further to that question, other than relying on the relationship with the U.S., is there potential for us to also work with other countries around the world to expand on these technologies? Canada is so big and with rural areas without the electric charging infrastructure, it could be difficult down the road for the transition into electric vehicles.

[Daniel Breton]

To that particular question, obviously I agree with Brian Kingston. We do need more infrastructure to make sure that Canadians can go across the country from sea to shining sea in an electric vehicle.

The issue regarding infrastructure is something that can be addressed quite easily, especially in rural areas. I live in the country. I don't have any issue in Quebec with infrastructure. B.C., Quebec and some regions of Atlantic Canada are ahead of the curve. The other provinces could be inspired by what's happening within those provinces. To say that it's hard to travel when you live in the country, actually it's a bit harder when you own an electric vehicle and you live in downtown Toronto or downtown Calgary and you don't have access to a charger because you live in a condo building or apartment building, MURBs we call them. This is another target and challenge that we address and which we spoke to the federal government about.

A lot has to do with education as well. Yes to infrastructure, yes to rebates, but education is key, because I'm hearing a lot of comments from people saying, “Well, we live in Canada and it's really hard to travel in an electric vehicle.” As I said, I just travelled 630 kilometres across Ontario and Quebec in an EV, which is not a Tesla by the way, with a family and a dog. The technology is evolving really quickly. Ten years ago the average EV had 120 kilometres of range. Now we're between 400 and 500 kilometres and it's going up and up as the price is going down as well. The technology is evolving a lot more quickly than people think.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Breton.

I have one more follow-up question with regard to electric charging stations.

I noticed there are several charging stations around our nation, especially in my area, that have been vandalized. If this persists, how do we avoid situations like this from happening in the future? Gas stations usually have staff looking after the gas station, but a charging vehicle is really just by itself, possibly in a remote area where nobody will have 24-hour surveillance of it.

[Daniel Breton]

It's funny you should mention that. A company called Parkland is a very big player in gas stations across the country. They just announced yesterday that they will be building the first electric-charging hub in the country in the next few months because they see this as the future of electric mobility infrastructure. It's going to be a place where there will be activities, light and food. The future of infrastructure is not going to be behind the parking lot where nobody sees anything and it's not well lit.

Things are going to evolve really quickly regarding infrastructure. ChargePoint, FLO, Circuit électrique, EVgo and many infrastructure providers are working on this right now, with some gas station companies, because they see that this is the future. It's going to evolve very quickly. It's already evolving.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you to all the witnesses. It's the beginning of a very important study. I think your message came across very clearly to all of us.

To our committee, if you could just hold on for a few minutes while our witnesses excuse themselves from the meeting. We have a few minutes of committee business that we have to deal with.

Thank you, all.

Members in the room have received the hard copies.

The committee will now proceed to the consideration of matters relating to committee business that we left off from the last meeting. I just need to say that we are not in camera; we are in public session. We don't have time to switch to in camera, so we are in public.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have the floor.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As a result of your suggestion to rework the motion, discussions were held and the motion was amended. You received the text of the motion by email. Would you like me to read it out or is the email enough for everyone?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Would you please read it into the record, sir?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study on Canadian mining companies abroad, particularly with respect to the environment and human rights; that the committee invite the Minister of International Trade, Export Promotion, Small Business and Economic Development or experts whom the committee deems relevant; that the committee hold a minimum of three meetings; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Monsieur Savard-Tremblay.

Is there any discussion?

Mr. Hoback.