International Trade Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Michel Murray]

I think all longshoremen—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Just one moment, sir. I think Mr. Cannings wasn't getting the translation.

Also, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, I think you were going too fast for the translator to keep up with you.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Murray, were you able to understand the question?

What are your fears about potential job losses if technological changes are made?

[Michel Murray]

Longshore workers all over the world are concerned about automation. It poses a risk to jobs and productivity.

A study in Europe showed that automation was less productive than human operators who use machinery parts. All longshore workers who earn their living from this profession are concerned about automation. I would be pleased to send you the study after today's meeting.

It may be Finland, I'm not sure, but one country found that longshore workers who came in close contact with mechanized machinery faced much higher health and safety risks, and that lives had been lost.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Murray.

It's on to Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Ballantyne to try to get some idea of the bad reputation or the declining reputation of Canadian ports. Here we are on a study about the port of Vancouver. It seems to me that the problems in the ports.... We've heard that it's the pandemic and climate change, but then we have one strike and suddenly, the workers are the problem. We haven't had a strike since 1969.

I'm just wondering if you could let me know why we have a bad reputation at the port of Vancouver, as opposed to the other ports in North America.

[Robert Ballantyne]

I think that was a short-term, temporary thing. That's my understanding.

Whether it was the follow-up from the pandemic primarily that led to whatever that global thing was.... They looked at a number of different ports in different parts of the world and ranked them. I don't have the details, but my recollection is that the ranking had to do with delays in ships being able to come to port, and possibly delays in when they were ready to leave again. I think that was temporary.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

It might have been other parts of the supply chain, rail traffic and things like that.

[Robert Ballantyne]

Possibly, but I think that ranking was really quite a temporary thing.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

We just heard again—I forget who mentioned this—that there are threatened job and labour disruptions in the United States. Presumably, part of that is due to the fact that it seems cargo companies and container ports are enjoying record profits, and the workers are faced with inflation, so they're demanding more money.

Is that a trend you see around the continent?

[Robert Ballantyne]

Yes. I think we see that trend quite broadly in various elements of the global supply chain.

Certainly, the container shipping lines during the pandemic seemed to really do extremely well. It's reasonable that employees who work for those would say, “Hey, maybe it's time for me to get my share of this as well.” The bargaining takes place, depending on all kinds of things, including what information there is on the profitability of the companies themselves.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ballantyne.

It's on to Mr. Jeneroux for five minutes, please.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for taking the time to be here today.

I want to begin with Mr. Rodgers or Ms. Kuzeljevich.

The impact, as we've heard it, on the shipment side is about $13 billion, with a net economic loss of about $1 billion. It seems a lot of that's due to the unpredictability and uncertainty that the strike, or the lead-up to the strike, caused.

Going back to when the collective agreement expired on March 31, 2023, would you not agree that there's certainly potential for that to be much higher than those numbers? Are there potentially lingering effects that then continue on poststrike?

[Julia Kuzeljevich]

I would agree about the cost of uncertainty. Certainly in our efforts to have information for our members that cost of uncertainty, which is difficult to determine as a lot of the panellists have commented just given the way that data is gathered and how we can obtain it even from our own members.... We can certainly determine, since that period of time when we started to mount our campaign with information for members, that uncertainty cost is huge.

I will echo what my colleague Mr. Rodgers said: To shut down a railway, for example, is a three-day process, and to ramp it back up again is a three-day process. In the intervening days and weeks before that, it's determining whether you are going to change a destination port, and then whether you are going to have to add trucking costs to get your shipment elsewhere. Those costs are pretty easy to forecast as well, but there are a lot of undetermined costs in the supply chain that are affecting our members.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I will quickly sum up for you that, essentially, it has the potential to be much higher than what has been indicated here, even at this committee.

I would like to switch quickly to Ms. Martin.

Along the same lines of questioning, the uncertainty that this causes, particularly in your industry where you indicated that you can't have fresh meat or meat sitting on a barge for an extended period of time per se, walk us through how your industry was impacted at the economic cost level, but also where that then puts you guys in terms of uncertainty when it comes to future strikes.

[Lauren Martin]

When we think about the meat supply chain, we think about it all the way down from the piglet to the fresh cut of meat that's on your plate. When there's an impact like this that gives some level of uncertainty at the end of the supply chain, the reverberations really go all the way back to that piglet stage. Are we going to need this many piglets to go onto the next stage of production? Are more or less of those sows that were gestating those piglets going to be required? Are we going to have to potentially have a cull at any point in the system, because, as I mentioned earlier, the system is very much set up for those products to get as quickly to market as possible.

If there's any backup in that chain, there's nowhere for the backup to go at any point in time. That's just a flavour of how, from the very beginning of the system all the way to the very end, it really has a significant impact.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It impacts the farmer is essentially what you are saying.

[Lauren Martin]

I have mentioned the impacts to the farmer, yes, but it is the processor as well. If they will need to stop production, yes, that impacts the farmer, but it is the processor's livelihood as well when the line is shut down.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I will just use my last 30 seconds. I know my colleague here from the Bloc is new today, but it was certainly not the position of the Leader of the Opposition to call back the strike. What he was doing was simply pointing out that the Minister of Transport was on the front cover of The Globe and Mail showing off his new pair of shoes, and that the Minister of Labour was apparently running on the seawall and spending time in his hotel room and not participating in the negotiations as we were encouraging him to.

That's just to correct the record, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Jeneroux.

Ms. Fortier, go ahead, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We're talking today about finding measures or solutions to ensure that, in the future, the negotiation process can continue at the table. I think that we all agree that the best negotiations happen at the bargaining table.

The government tabled Bill C‑33, An Act to amend the Customs Act, the Railway Safety Act, the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992, the Marine Transportation Security Act, the Canada Transportation Act and the Canada Marine Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.

To make sure that we're all on the same page, I'd like to say the following. The bill aims to amend current legislation and modernize the way Canada's marine and railway transportation systems operate; remove systemic barriers to create a more fluid, secure and resilient supply chain; expand Canada port authorities' mandate over traffic management; position Canada's ports as strategic hubs that support national supply chain performance and effectively manage investment decisions for sustainable growth; improve the government's insight into ports and their operations; and modernize provisions on rail safety, security and transportation of dangerous goods.

In its current form, the bill is a win‑win approach. Of course, the bill could be strengthened. That's our focus right now.

I want to hear the witnesses' views on this matter.

First, do they agree that the best agreements are made by the parties at the bargaining table?

Second, I would like to ask each witness to comment on the legislation. Some witnesses have already made suggestions, but others haven't yet had the opportunity to do so. What does it mean for the members and sectors that you represent?

Ms. Martin, I'd like you to answer the question first. The other witnesses can then respond.

[Lauren Martin]

Thank you very much for your comments. I hope I am summarizing them correctly. Essentially, the question is that you would like to understand....

Actually, could you rephrase the question? Thank you.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It's two things.

First, do you agree that negotiations are best negotiated at the table?

Second, for the current law presented, Bill C-33, are there things in there you agree with and think would help, or are there things you might want to see in there in order to make sure we strengthen the law?

[Lauren Martin]

I appreciate the question.

I feel ill-equipped to answer, unfortunately. As someone who is not a labour expert, I don't think I would be well served in answering that.

Thank you.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Ballantyne.