International Trade Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[Carlo Dade]

What Japan has done well is they've done what all of our competitors have done: the national planning, the ability to get their data across integrated supply and production chains, the ability to make investments that are based on data and data informed by decision-making.

That is the major difference. Time and time again, you see this across the board.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Now we have Madam Fortier for five minutes, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm sorry, my voice is weak, but I hope you'll hear me.

What interests me at the moment is once again the whole issue of workers and collective bargaining. The witnesses today all seem to agree that the best negotiations are done at the bargaining table. However, I'm also hearing that the government needs tools, particularly to ensure that this kind of situation does not happen again. So I heard you talk about what we should not do, but not what we should do.

Mr. Guy, you do not agree with the approach we are proposing in Bill C‑58. Are there any solutions or tools that you think we should be using? I still think this bill is a very important measure to implement, but you may have other ideas.

Then I will turn to Mr. Eidlin to see if he can also suggest tools that could be used in situations like this.

Go ahead, Mr. Guy.

[Robin Guy]

I think what we're looking for are tools that would bring parties together. We're really looking for the ability to force a deal or hold them to the table in advance of a work stoppage. The challenging question is that it's not really a one size-fits-all approach, but some options that I think have been suggested to the government include binding arbitration or cabinet powers to be able to, again, hold the parties to the table and get a deal done.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Eidlin, do you have any comments?

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

Yes.

I would say that a structure must be created that encourages employers to come to an agreement at the bargaining table.

Historically, we have seen the government intervene to do so. That is why, in general, the labour relations structure in Canada is better than in the United States. In Canada, there was a desire to force employers to negotiate. However, now, with the use of special legislation and scabs, we are moving away from that approach, which worked for a number of years.

So the government should look at ways to encourage employers to enter into agreements at the bargaining table.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Eidlin, based on your experience, your knowledge and the studies you have done, are there examples or models elsewhere in the world that Canada could draw inspiration from in situations like this?

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

My knowledge is mainly focused on North America, but I am somewhat familiar with other labour relations systems. We could draw inspiration from the methods used in Europe, for example, where there are joint action systems. We need a much more robust system that recognizes the rights of workers and the importance of collective bargaining, and that does not use these kinds of constraints to undermine collective bargaining. We could look at the joint action systems in Sweden and Germany, for example.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We'll go on to Madam Larouche for two and a half minutes, please.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Eidlin, I would like to come back to the anti-scab bill that was recently introduced in the House of Commons.

What do you think about the 18-month period before the bill comes into force, if it receives royal assent?

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

I have a hard time understanding this logic because if there is a problem now and we have to give ourselves the tools to solve it, why not give them to us now?

If it can work in 180 days and it already works in British Columbia and Quebec, why wouldn't it work immediately at the federal level, across Canada?

I don't think that makes sense.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Recently, in CBC interviews, you pointed out that there have not been as many labour disputes lately as during historic periods of labour unrest. Their frequency has nevertheless increased in recent years. You have identified a number of factors to explain this, including the pandemic, which has exacerbated certain trends, including the erosion of wages, the growth of inequalities, the unpredictability of schedules and job security. You also predicted an increase in the number of labour disputes. On social network X, you said that you were grateful for the labour movement that is developing here and in the United States.

Can you tell us more, in a few seconds, about the factors that you think explain this increase in labour disputes?

What are your recommendations to reduce the frequency of these disputes?

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

As I said in the media, there are a number of factors. In particular, there is the deterioration of working conditions—that is to say the growth of inequalities, the stagnation of wages, the reduction of benefits, and so on. The pandemic brought this to light in a way that we hadn't seen before. It is not that these problems did not already exist, but that we became aware of them in a new way.

After the pandemic, the labour market got a bit better. That gave the workers a little more bargaining power. Now that we are in a period with more labour disputes, there is a demonstration effect. People are saying to themselves that this is an option they have to solve their problems at work.

We have a long way to go to resolve this. All of these problems developed over 40 years. The power of workers has been undermined by power relationships over the years. There is some catching up to be done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, sir. I'm sorry to interrupt, but the time is up. We have to go to the next questioner.

I will now go to Madam Zarrillo for two and a half minutes. That will bring us to the appropriate time to finish this part of our meeting.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Eidlin, you made some comments earlier about how important it is to look at the whole economy and at how people are doing, how workers and families are doing, in an economy. There has been much discussion that strikes like this can potentially impact the economy in a negative way. I'm wondering if you could share, from your knowledge and career, the benefits that have been won by unions that have improved the Canadian economy and the life of Canadians.

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

First of all, I want to say that we need to place the disruption of strikes in the broader context as well. That is the day-to-day disruption of the status quo, meaning that when we're in a world of stagnating wages for workers who can't get enough hours, or who are being forced to do too many hours, or who are forced to work too many jobs, or who don't have a pension, or who don't have job security, that creates crises and disruptions on a day-to-day basis. They don't make the headlines, but they're very real problems for many Canadians. When we see these strikes, what they're doing is they're bringing some of this private disruption out into the open. That's the first thing.

The second thing, responding more directly to your question about what unions have won, is that much of the standard of living that Canadian workers take for granted today—maybe not take for granted, but enjoy today—is the result of labour struggles. The weekend, the eight-hour day, the health care system we have—these are all things that unions fought for. The postal workers strike of 1981 was critical in bringing paid family leave to the fore as a critical issue for Canadian families.

I could go on, but I think we'd run out of time. I think it's important to recognize that what we think of today as the things that make Canada a prosperous society are not things that were just given. They were fought for. They were fought for by workers and their unions.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

I have one last question for you. This study is about the economic impacts of the strike at the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority. Is there data on the economic impact on workers and families in the region?

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

Unfortunately, I'm not equipped to answer that question. I could follow up later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You can follow up on Madam Zarrillo's question, and send it to the clerk. That would be appreciated.

[Prof. Barry Eidlin]

I would be happy to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We've completed the hour we had agreed to. I'm not seeing any other business here at the table.

The meeting is adjourned.