International Trade Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Dean Foster]

I would say it's one of the many issues under consideration, but there's no formalized proposal text yet on any issue, including this—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Has it or it hasn't it? You said, “No, it hasn't,” and then you said, “Yes, it has.” Is carbon pricing being considered as part of this trade deal?

[Dean Foster]

Discussions are ongoing about what would be included. I will err towards the side of yes, it has been discussed and considered, and we're looking forward to hearing feedback from this committee as a part of final decision-making purposes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Has it been raised by the minister's office?

[Dean Foster]

No.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

Unfortunately, that's your time, Mr. Jeneroux.

I will now turn to Mr. Sheehan for six minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My question is for His Excellency.

You've been in this position now for a couple of years, I understand. You've given some excellent testimony and made great observations. I'd like to hear from you what this free trade agreement between Canada and Ecuador, if signed, might do in terms of what they call additional benefits for “soft powers”, for diplomatic benefits, from your view, between our countries—between our embassy in Ecuador and vice versa into Canada. If you wouldn't mind spending a little time on that....

[Stephen Potter]

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, a comprehensive, modern trade deal with a country such as Canada is extremely important for Ecuador. That's what I'm hearing from the authorities. That's what I've heard from the president, the foreign minister and the trade minister. They see this as entering the big leagues, in a sense. Yes, they have a trade deal with the EU, but they're very much looking forward to a trade deal with Canada, one that will have modern chapters on areas such as indigenous issues, women and the environment.

Being able to advance this deal early in the current administration is also, for them, a message that Ecuador is moving ahead, opening up and open for business, including Canadian business. I think this helps position Canada—because of this goodwill—for new opportunities in Ecuador. I mentioned that there are, for example, opportunities in infrastructure. Everyone talks about the mining sector, but there are many opportunities beyond this. Those are on the investment side.

On the trade and export side, if the economy grows and diversifies here—which is very much the objective of the government and many members of the national assembly—there could be opportunities in machinery exports, for example, as well as to increase the existing products they export. They're also very interested in seeing Ecuadorean products in Canadian stores, as some of the previous witnesses have testified.

I think this will help position Canada as a friend of Ecuador and help achieve influence in other areas as well.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I have a follow-up question.

You mentioned some of the trade deals that have been or are being negotiated. I don't know if this is a diplomatic question or a technical question, so I'll let the ambassador or Mr. Foster answer this.

What might happen, and how could that influence the negotiations happening right now between Canada and Ecuador? For instance, are they trying to negotiate the same things, or are their deals a little different? Are you able to answer that?

[Dean Foster]

I'll take that one.

Ecuador's trade agreements vary quite a bit. There's the more limited scope—the goods-only focus with China, for example—and the far more comprehensive sets of agreements with Korea and Costa Rica, most recently.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That's interesting.

The other question I have is this: There's been a very big consultation process with agriculture. Mining has been mentioned, as well as various extractive industries and fisheries. Have the Ecuadoreans also undergone a consultative process, and what did it look like for both Canada and Ecuador?

[Dean Foster]

I'll speak about the Canadian process and let the ambassador speak about the process on the ground in Ecuador.

For us, it was a Canada Gazette-based public consultation, whereby we heard from interested stakeholders, some of whom we followed up with at subsequent meetings and also leading up to.... We basically have an open-door policy with stakeholders on an ongoing, rolling basis, so this parliamentary process is now yielding some new interest and learning from whoever comes to testify for you from our provinces and territories. Our provincial and territorial governments are also reaching out to stakeholders to solicit yet more feedback.

It's over to the ambassador for the Ecuador insight.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Ambassador, I think you're on mute.

[Stephen Potter]

I have to unmute. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ecuador has not undertaken as extensive a consultation process as Canada's, but it has expressed interest in Canadian technical assistance and support—how we conduct consultations in Canada and reach beyond the traditional business communities to other groups. We're looking at supporting them in this. Of course, it's up to Ecuador to consult here, not Canada.

I can say that I've met with most of the business groups here—the export chamber and the Canadian chambers of commerce. In Quito and Guayaquil there is very high interest in this agreement in the business community, the export sectors and other sectors. We've also been reaching out to different cities and areas of the country and the chambers of commerce in those areas.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

That is time.

We'll go to Mr. Savard-Tremblay for six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for their presentations.

Ambassador, I am reassured by your last comment. You conclude that the consultations were successful based on the fact that you have spoken to the Canadian business community. That's reassuring.

There are projects in Ecuador tied to Adventus Mining, Atico Mining and Solaris Resources.

If you don't mind, I'd like us to talk about the Shuar Arutam people from the Ecuadorian Amazon. These are 47 communities that are organized into six associations, and their population is estimated to be about 12,000 people and 1,000 families.

You indicated that you did not want to meet with the president of the people in question.

Can you tell us why you didn't want to do that?

[Stephen Potter]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

At that time, I knew that the company was in negotiations and discussions with representatives of several communities in the region where the project was taking place, and I did not want to interfere in that process.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

And yet you met with people from the company.

Is that correct?

[Stephen Potter]

I met with people from the company, but not from another organization, the Interprovincial Federation of Shuar Centers. It represents more than 200 communities in the region where the project took place.

As in Canada, situations in rural areas are complicated, complex.

There are organizations that present themselves as representatives of the communities or a set of communities, and it is not up to us to decide which representatives are the most—

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Ambassador, you say that you did not want to meet with representatives of the Shuar Arutam people because they were in discussions with the company.

We know that there have been discussions. So the company recognizes this group which, in your opinion, is not necessarily legitimate. You also say that it is not up to you to decide. And yet you met with people from the company. You said that you did not want to meet with another group so as not to interfere in the discussions. I am trying to understand the logic.

Now I want to ask you another question.

We know that in June 2023, the Ecuadorian government attempted to use police and military repression to impose an environmental consultation in Las Naves and Sigchos, in the provinces of Bolivar and Cotopaxi respectively, to advance two Canadian mining projects.

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights stated in a press release on July 27, 2023, that “[p]eople directly affected by mining projects or activities must be heard, not repressed.”

In June, you were in the same area, in Las Naves. You said in an interview that you were able to verify that the project was a responsible investment with community support. Unlike the UN special rapporteur, you did not denounce the violence.

Do you think a mining project should continue even if the population rejects it?

Also, do you think it is acceptable for such a project to be supported by the government through violent methods?

[Stephen Potter]

Thank you for the question.

I will speak in English, just to be clear in my response.

There's a small group that, to my understanding, opposes the mine in this one situation. Yes, I have visited the community, and I've met with community representatives. The representative for the High Commissioner for Human Rights has not, and I have expressed to him in private communication my concern that he has been formulating opinions and positions and publishing them without having a full and broader understanding of the situation.

I have offered to provide contacts in the community with the company and with others. I recently met with the senior elected leadership of the community, who have assured me that in fact it's a small group that is opposing the mine. In fact, in the environmental consultation that concluded recently, this received 98% support from the community. This consultation was managed by the ministry of environment, not by the company.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Ambassador, in your opinion, is the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights a small group or credible body?

Keep your answer short, please.

[Stephen Potter]

I think, in this instance, that the opinion of the High Commissioner for Human Rights was not well-founded.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Okay. So that's just an opinion.

At the moment, you cannot say that there has been violence. You still don't say that.