Evidence of meeting #96 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ecuador.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chiasson-LeBel  Assistant Professor, Université de l'Ontario français, As an Individual
René Roy  Chair, Canadian Pork Council
Jane Proctor  Vice-President, Policy and Issue Management, Canadian Produce Marketing Association
Jeff English  Vice President, Marketing and Communications, Pulse Canada
Stephen Potter  Ambassador of Canada to Ecuador, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Dean Foster  Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

February 29th, 2024 / 5:05 p.m.

Stephen Potter Ambassador of Canada to Ecuador, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the committee's deliberations on the proposal for a free trade agreement between Canada and Ecuador.

My name is Stephen Potter, and I have been Canada's ambassador to Ecuador since September 2022.

My background is mainly in development, so I can appreciate the importance and relevance of this agreement in Ecuador.

I am not an expert in international trade like my colleague. So I will not be able to answer questions of a more technical nature.

During my presentation, I will try to answer some of the questions asked at the last committee meeting on this subject. I'm talking about the meeting my colleagues attended two weeks ago.

I will start, Mr. Chair, by addressing the relative importance of this trade deal for both countries, including in the current economic, political, and security context in Ecuador.

The Ecuadorean economy is highly dependent on oil exports. Declining oil prices and production over the last 10 years have reduced state revenues and its capacity to invest in infrastructure and social programs. This is in contrast to the oil price boom from 2008-14, which coincided with the administration of then president Rafael Correa, when the state expanded these investments and entitlement programs and took an increasingly protectionist line, aligning more internationally with countries such as China, Russia, Venezuela and others.

However, this period of high oil prices also facilitated significant corruption, poor-quality investment, and large and un-transparent debt arrangements, notably with China. During this period, the closure of the U.S. air base in Manta also helped enable narco-criminal penetration into Ecuador, particularly as a shipping point for cocaine.

Subsequently, the COVID epidemic further damaged the economy and weakened state institutions, facilitating increased entry of narco gangs into communities and the arrival of larger criminal organizations, including Mexican cartels. During this period, local narco gangs began to fight amongst themselves, dramatically escalating gun crime and insecurity. The prisons developed as centres of this violence. Ecuador changed from an island of peace in the region to the country with the second-highest level of violent deaths in the region last year.

The last two governments and the current government have tried to focus on reactivating the economy by reducing oil export dependence, lowering inefficient state subsidies, eradicating corruption and criminality and creating jobs. None of this been easy, primarily due to entrenched corruption connected to criminal interests. These governments, especially the last two, have had a common strategy for economic transition: responsible fiscal management, opening up the country to investments, and facilitating increased exports. The national assembly, notably, has recently—within the last month—ratified new trade deals with China and Costa Rica that were negotiated during the previous administration. A deal with South Korea has been reached but not ratified. As you're aware, a deal with the EU was signed several years ago.

The current government of President Daniel Noboa, with generally good collaboration in the national assembly, has also implemented several economic measures to promote employment and increase revenues, and has taken a very active line on promoting investment and free trade.

On April 21, as one of the previous witnesses mentioned, there will be a national referendum, with 11 questions aimed at implementing some policy changes where the assembly lacks the authority or is unlikely to provide support. Constitutional reforms require a referendum process, for example.

Notably, one referendum question would modify the constitution to allow for international arbitration of trade and investment disputes, ISDS, an issue that was discussed quite a bit in the last two sessions.

Why is this being proposed? The government believes that the inability to use international arbitration is driving away international investors and is a factor in Ecuador's high country risk. Ecuador is becoming less competitive as a destination for investment.

In summary, why am I telling you all this? Why does it matter? I think this proposed FTA with Canada is more than just a trade deal and more than just a technical issue; it can genuinely contribute to stability, democratic governance and sound economic management in a strategically important region for Canada, for Canadians and for Canadian companies, both investors and exporters.

If Ecuador stabilizes economically, politically and security-wise, there are good opportunities for economic growth, creating new opportunities for Canadian exporters and investors as well as expanding demand for existing exports, such as grains and pulses, for example. Canada and Canadian firms have an excellent reputation in Ecuador, and an FTA with Canada is very highly anticipated by the local business community.

Several Canadian investments in the mining sector are poised to pass to the construction phase very soon. For example, the Curipamba project of Toronto-based Adventus Mining will invest $282 million U.S. and create 800 direct jobs and 3,000 indirect jobs in 22 months of construction that are scheduled to begin this year.

The government of Daniel Noboa has been following through on its commitment to accelerate investments, for example, through faster decisions on permits. He will be at the Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada meeting next Monday in Toronto, where he will talk about some of the things he's done to facilitate investments.

We are also seeing infrastructure planning activity accelerate, and already some Canadian companies have been contracted to undertake engineering and feasibility studies.

Mr. Chair, at the last meeting, members of the committee asked a few questions about the mining sector and the Canadian presence. Here are a few comments.

First of all, Ecuador is not a mining power like Peru and Chile, for example. There are only two large-scale mines that are active—a Canadian mine and a Chinese mine. Nevertheless, with these two mines, last year, the export of mining products became the fourth-largest source of revenue for the Government of Ecuador. Ecuador has great mineral potential, especially in copper and gold. One of Ecuador's attractions for mining companies is its vast green energy potential, as well as its port capacity and proximity.

Furthermore, Canadian companies are leaders in this sector, and they are the most ready to build their mines. The Lundin Gold gold mine, a Vancouver-based company, has some of the lowest greenhouse gas emissions in the world. I myself have visited almost all the sites of Canadian mines, where I have also had the opportunity to speak with members of the communities. As you know, the Government of Canada expects Canadian companies to adhere to the same standards of responsible business conduct as they do in Canada, and I'm sure that's happening in this case.

The regulatory and legal framework for the mining sector is being modernized, but the standard for environmental assessment is high, and there are guarantees in terms of information and community participation. In the National Assembly of Ecuador, there is strong support for the responsible development of Ecuador's mineral potential.

We must also recognize the opposition to mining activities expressed by members of civil society and national leaders of indigenous groups, for environmental, cultural and ideological reasons.

In addition, we must recognize the strong and growing presence of illegal mining activities linked to drug trafficking groups in the territories. This contributes to environmental contamination, as well as to resulting social and safety issues.

Mr. Chair, there were some questions with respect to oil in the last meeting that I would like to address.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Ambassador, I hate to interrupt, but you're at about eight and a half minutes, and we said five. I'm trying to give you as much latitude as I can. Are you close?

5:15 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to Ecuador, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Potter

I'm just about finished, but I thought I'd quickly answer some of those questions that I wasn't able to respond to at the last meeting.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

You will have an opportunity to answer questions today, I can assure you. There are a number of members, I'm sure, who will ask.

5:15 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to Ecuador, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

If you were going to try to answer some questions, I'm going to suggest that we turn to questions.

5:15 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to Ecuador, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Potter

As you wish.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Wonderful. We will go to the first round, and that will be with Mr. Jeneroux for six minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Does Mr. Foster have any opening comments? No? All right. I will start my watch.

Thank you, Ambassador and Mr. Foster, for joining us today.

Just so I understand what the process is, we're in the precomponent of the negotiations, but where does it begin for you, Mr. Foster? Is there a direction from the minister in terms of your mandate and how the negotiations begin? Does it come from Ecuador itself? Is it a combination of the two? Perhaps you could explain the process that we're in now and where we're heading.

5:15 p.m.

Dean Foster Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

I guess this gets at the life cycle of a trade negotiation.

We usually begin—just about always—with what we call “exploratory” discussions, which in this case were undertaken over the last year, more or less. Those were launched by Minister Ng and her previous Ecuadorean counterpart about a year ago—a little more. That involves a series of meetings between all the different expert-level groups that compose a free trade agreement negotiation, usually presenting past models and discussing ongoing policy reviews and policy thinking to arrive at a common expectation about whether it's an appropriate partner to proceed with.

That's when we proceed towards a decision regarding whether to proceed with a launch of negotiations. On the parliamentary side, that includes the 90-day notification of intent and the forthcoming publication of negotiating objectives for Parliament to react to before we commence the negotiations, typically with what we call a “first round”. A round is typically a one-week sort of conference—you could see it that way—where all the negotiating teams meet, whether virtually, hybrid or in person, in what would be 12 to 14 concurrent meeting rooms.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

When are the elements of the trade deal discussed, like the specific details of it, what's in it and what's not? Again, is the minister saying to your team, “This is what I want to put in it”? Does your team go and say, “This is what we should put in it, Minister”? I'm trying to understand the back-and-forth narrative between you and the minister.

5:15 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

Well, every international treaty negotiation mandate, including a trade negotiation mandate, emanates from a cabinet mandate process, but then, also, details will be informed by various policy inputs. That would include stakeholder consultations, provinces and territories, and the process you're going through here today.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

We've seen a number of elements in trade deals, some of which included the carbon pricing, for example, in the latest trade deal with Ukraine. Is that something that has been mandated to you as part of the negotiation process you're in right now?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

Right now we are in the parliamentary notification period. All of our expert groups responsible for the different chapters are working on those chapters right now. We don't have the authority to complete and table text until the parliamentary process has run out. We're looking forward to your study, among other inputs, to finalize what is ultimately tabled in the negotiations and discussed with the partner.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Can you answer whether carbon pricing has come up in the negotiation process so far?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

The negotiation process has not started yet. During the exploratory discussions we share existing texts from various agreements, but not formal text proposals, if you will. We don't have a mandate to do so yet.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Has somebody raised carbon pricing with you?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

Well, internally we're looking at all of our chapters, including that one, but no decision has been taken yet on a final text, including what its contents would be on that issue.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

When does that decision...? What timeline are we looking at for when that would become...?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

That would be following both the 90-day notification of intent period that we're in right now in Parliament and the 30-day period of publication of high-level negotiating objectives.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

It's safe to say that somebody has raised carbon pricing already as part of this trade deal.

5:20 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

The carbon pricing co-operation provision contained in one of our agreements is one of many agreements that are used to consider what options are brought to the table. No decision has been taken.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

It has been raised, though.

5:20 p.m.

Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Dean Foster

Not directly.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Nobody has raised carbon pricing as part of this trade deal.