International Trade Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Naqvi, please.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thanks to all of you for being here and for the hard work you do.

This is obviously the kind of work that requires probably a lot of international co-operation to work with other jurisdictions. I want to hear your feedback on how that process works in terms of co-operation with like-minded countries when you're trying to do the due diligence and the tracking of compliance when it comes to forced labour. I'm thinking of work that may happen along with the United States, officials, the European Union, etc.

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, this is certainly an issue of importance in our international dialogues and in our diplomacy. It's an issue that is talked about frequently at the OECD amongst the like-minded. It's an important issue there.

It's an important issue at the United Nations, where there are bodies that include an annual UN human rights forum which Canada attends. It is an ongoing topic of conversation, including with, as you mentioned, the European Union.

In terms of operational co-operation, I believe that CBSA has very vigorous relationships with partners.

[Graeme Hamilton]

Maybe I'll supplement that quickly.

In terms of our co-operation with the U.S., as well as Mexico, I think I testified earlier that there are ongoing conversations related to forced labour, where there are technical exchanges and information exchanges under the rubric of CUSMA co-operation.

Bilaterally as well with the U.S., there's specific information sharing. We have been hosted by our U.S. colleagues in their forced labour targeting centre in New Jersey—I believe it was last year—in order to better understand how they're using the information they are able to get on their supply chains in order to effect, at the end of the day, effective targeting on goods coming into the U.S. economy.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Hutchison, you talked about the multilateral engagement on this issue and the ongoing conversations within the United Nations framework and OECD.

Can you highlight for us some of the policy concerns that are raised internationally? What kind of discussion is taking place to try to figure out policy solutions in a multilateral framework to deal with issues around forced labour?

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, that is a very good question because it is such a complex issue facing the international community. You run into questions of sovereignty and enforcement. There is only so much you can do as a country when products are arriving on your shores that come from elsewhere.

Another challenge that various governments have expressed—I have heard this from some like-minded Europeans—is balancing the challenges that we're all facing, like the headwinds that we're facing in our economy and our efforts to grow our economy, with, conversely, the need to potentially consider various regulations that come with costs to both businesses and consumers.

That balancing act is something that many governments around the world have considered and discussed.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Some issues have a regular rhythm, where plenary sessions or policy proposals are continuously advanced.

Is the issue serious enough to see that level of engagement and work toward some sort of an understanding, protocol or regime internationally so that countries, especially countries that are allies, have similar systems in place and can share resources to clamp down on forced labour?

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, there are often discussions about the need to have a consistent approach, because there is no sort of uniform approach. One thing we hear from the business community is that there be consistency and that they not be asked to adhere to different regulations in different territories.

At the OECD, this is an ongoing conversation, but at this point I would say it's mostly technical. It has not risen to a high political level in terms of negotiating a multilateral understanding or anything of that nature.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

My first question is for the CBSA officials.

I introduced Bill C‑251. I'm not asking you to comment on the bill, of course. I know your job is to enforce the measures in the act, not to make recommendations.

The bill would add subsection 101(2) to the Customs Act and make it mandatory to detain goods from designated areas or entities. It would incorporate the notion of areas into the act, something you talked about. Under the bill, Canada would adopt the same model as the U.S., where goods are detained until it is proven that they were not produced by forced labour.

Say the bill or similar legislation came into force. In terms of operational capacity, what would the agency need to enforce the measures? I'm referring mainly to warehouses, personnel, labs and data.

[Graeme Hamilton]

It's not my position to necessarily comment on laws that are in front of parliamentarians for consideration. Generally speaking, as a border agency, there are several principles that I can speak to in terms of good management of the flow of goods.

The first one, obviously, would be to ensure that there is a degree of understanding of what is or is not allowed into the country. The ability to ensure there's a degree of preborder or postborder work, so that we're not always working at the choke point of the border itself, is a good principle. Understanding data, as we previously testified, is an important component of that.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

My question was about what would happen if changes were made to the act. I said “if”. I'm not asking you to recommend any changes or to tell us whether you're for or against the bill.

This hypothetical change to the act would require you to detain goods from certain areas or entities suspected of using forced labour until the importer proves otherwise.

Under that scenario, what resources would you need?

Would you need more storage capacity, for instance?

[Graeme Hamilton]

Madam Chair, I think it's a very difficult hypothetical question to answer.

It's uncertain how many goods would be detained, and the amount of goods would obviously impact the amount of space required. It would be very difficult for me, at this point, to comment on that, but space would obviously be a question or a concern we would have to think about.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have time for a short question.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

My question is a bit long. How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You don't. I'm trying to give you a bit more time. Do you have a pressing question that you need to ask?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

I'll save it for the next round, then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Next, I have Mr. Chambers and then Mr. Fonseca. Then it will depend on how the committee wants to deal with the balance of time.

Mr. Chambers, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you for coming to this committee, and welcome back.

My understanding is that you've had four ministers in the department in five years. There have been four public safety ministers in five years. Is that about right?

[Graeme Hamilton]

It could be. I'm not sure. I'm not counting.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

On point, every time there's a new minister, they have to find out what the departmental priorities are.

I sense that the reason there hasn't been as much enforcement is that it's not a political priority for the government. You don't have to answer that because I know it's not your place. However, when you have four ministers in five years and when you compare us to other jurisdictions, there's something there that's not quite aligned, whether it's institutional capacity or something not coming down from the top.

Have any of you been in a meeting with the minister where forced labour has been brought up?

[Graeme Hamilton]

Madam Chair, I'm not a frequent briefer of the minister on any topic, nor have I briefed him specifically on this.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Sure.

Are you aware of any briefing with the minister where forced labour has been brought up?

[Graeme Hamilton]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I'm not privy to the briefing schedule and cycle that he has, so I wouldn't want to testify. I am personally not aware, but that is not to say it is not the case. I do not have full visibility of his calendar of briefings.