Evidence of meeting #7 for International Trade in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Appleton  Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual
Payne  National President, Unifor
Bednar  Managing Director, The Canadian SHIELD Institute
Zalik  Professor, York University, As an Individual
Kingston  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association
Hasenfratz  Executive Chair, Linamar Corporation

4:20 p.m.

Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual

Barry Appleton

I'll try to be as quick as I can. I'm mindful of the time.

Mr. Lavoie, I was part of the team that helped negotiate the agreement on internal trade in Canada and brought the first case against internal trade barriers that struck a trade barrier down. This is very important to me generally, but it's not part of the strategy because foundationally the benefit is [Technical difficulty—Editor] country and important to us as a matter of making our country more efficient. We still have a battle on an international trade side, and that's the part that I worry about.

What I've been focusing on today—

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Appleton, hold on.

I'm sorry. Your information is very valuable, and we continue to have interpretation problems.

Can you start to speak again?

4:20 p.m.

Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual

Barry Appleton

From the top...?

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Take it from the middle.

We may invite you back another time because your information is so critical.

4:25 p.m.

Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual

Barry Appleton

I thank you, Madam Chair. I'll do the best I can.

What I was saying was that there are significant benefits to Canada as a country in being able to have internal commerce work in a very significant way. Our battle right now is with the United States and, while that gives us a little bit more innovation and a bit more in terms of productivity, it doesn't move the needle to the extent that we need to do that. What we need to do is be able to deal with very significant structural trade dependents.

That's a very big problem because, in many ways, it was too good for us for so long that we didn't do the type of innovation and diversification that we needed to do. Now, not only do we have that, but we're not buying Canadian. I've written a paper on that recently, and you can see that on the CIGI website. You can see that we are not focusing in on the sectors that we need to focus on and the information that we need, so we're being out-gunned. That is a choice that we're making, and we should not do that. This committee can make a difference now to help us do better.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

We still have the view at 30,000 feet. One question keeps popping into my head. You said that predictability was good for a long time, but has it disappeared for the next 10 to 15 years? Will we need to learn to live with this unpredictability and move forward anyway?

4:25 p.m.

Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual

Barry Appleton

Mr. Lavoie, you need to invite me back to the committee. I gave a wonderful speech to the New York City Bar on this topic last March.

The rule of law has been replaced by the rule of whim. I don't have a good word in French for that, so I'll leave it to the interpreters.

At the end of the day, we can't predict weather, and we can't predict what's going to take place. Everything is based on a tweet on Truth Social. Our problem is that we need to understand that it's about leverage. It's about a different type of policy, a different type of approach, and we're still playing the old game.

That's where I differ with the honourable minister, because he's doing a job working on the old game, and I understand why. At the same time, we must also be preparing a strategy for the new game, and I fear that we are not doing that. I especially fear that we are missing out on the innovation economy, which is at the heart of our economy today across this country. I fear that we will lose that because we're not prepared for that, and that would be a terrible tragedy.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you have two minutes.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Mr. Appleton, I want to continue our earlier discussion. You were talking about consultation mechanisms. Do you think that other aspects of transparency should be implemented?

4:25 p.m.

Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual

Barry Appleton

Absolutely. I think the level of consultation that we have is insufficient and inadequate. We should be having much more significant information from the government about what they're looking for, and we should have proposals from the government to have more meaningful consultation. You can have consultation, and you can have meaningful consultation. I think we have some consultation, but we don't have meaningful consultation. We should be engaging more with members of Parliament, members of this committee and the provinces about the process—and with civil society groups as well. That's one of the factors that would be taken up by strategic advisory groups, but not the only one.

I think there should be more, not less. It's essential for the government to do that, because we are in a battle and we need to consult with Canadians more because of the battle, not less.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We have 50 seconds remaining.

We have our next panel. It's difficult, because the information is so important. If we want to squeeze two minutes off the other panel, we'll do two minutes for you and two minutes for Peter.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Perfect. Thank you, Madam Chair.

We don't have a lot of time. This committee makes recommendations to the government. I'm going to ask a couple of quick questions.

Ms. Payne, would you recommend that the government remove tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles?

4:25 p.m.

National President, Unifor

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Mr. Appleton, you would recommend, I take it, the reintroduction of some version of the modernized version of SAGITs. Is that correct?

4:25 p.m.

Professor, Balsillie School of International Affairs, As an Individual

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Ms. Bednar, you mentioned that sometimes there could be some version of capture in negotiations, or in the submissions process or the consultations. Would you recommend more transparency on the submissions that the government receives from industry associations and private sector participants?

4:30 p.m.

Managing Director, The Canadian SHIELD Institute

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Thank you very much.

Thanks, Madam Chair.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Peter.

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for the bold testimony that we've heard here today. You have all said that this is like no other negotiation we've ever seen before. What is happening is extraordinary. I want to thank Ms. Payne, Mr. DiCaro and others here for standing up for Canadians, for standing up for labour and for our workers.

Our approach has been a team Canada approach. It's labour. It's business. It's government. It's all levels of government. You brought up municipal, provincial and federal working together. This is the approach we've taken. It has worked well for us in the past. What tweaks, what changes, need to be made for this strategy to have a bigger impact and to get us the results that we're looking for?

What approach are you looking for so that we can get the best deal for Canada and Canadians?

I'll direct this to Ms. Payne.

4:30 p.m.

National President, Unifor

Lana Payne

I think you've heard it here all day. You've heard it from the professor and you heard it from me that we need to have a coordinated strategy. We need tables where that happens, and it has to be meaningful and real. While I, as president of a powerful union, might be able to get my point of view across, that doesn't mean that everybody can. We need to make sure that we're creating the structures and the spaces in order to accumulate the best information we can possibly have to help our negotiators. We don't know what we don't know, and there is a lot of information, a lot of intel, out there that I believe can and will help us be more strategic in what we're trying to achieve. We also need to make sure that people are in the loop as much as we can. That absolutely has to happen. Industry, labour, government and obviously all of us academics have to work together to get what can be a very good result for Canada.

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you so much to all of our witnesses for that very valuable information.

I will suspend momentarily.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm calling the meeting back to order.

We have with us now for the remaining hour, as an individual, Anna Zalik, professor, York University, by video conference. From the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, we have Brian Kingston, president and chief executive officer.

We're glad to have you here, especially today.

From Linamar Corporation, we have Linda Hasenfratz, executive chair.

Welcome to all of you for being with us today. We appreciate that very much.

Professor Zalik, would you like to go first, please, with your opening comments for up to five minutes?

Anna Zalik Professor, York University, As an Individual

Thank you very much to the chair of the committee for the invitation to present insights here and to the clerks and technological staff for their assistance.

I'm a professor at York University in Toronto. Over the past 20 years, my research has concerned the geopolitics of the oil industry, with extensive field research in oil-producing regions in Mexico, Nigeria and western Canada.

I'm originally from Alberta. I studied at the University of Alberta and subsequently at Cornell University in New York state, and I was a post-doc at the University of California, Berkeley, before assuming a full-time position at York University in 2007.

Over the last decade and a half, a significant part of my research has concerned Canadian investment in the restructured Mexican energy sector, a restructuring brought about by the 2013 constitutional reform in Mexico.

I presented at this committee in June 2024, at the end of the Mexican leg of a course on the CUSMA agreement, but the continental dynamics have clearly changed considerably in that one-and-a-half-year period, and some of the cautions I suggested then with regard to Mexican energy sovereignty now apply equally to Canada, if not more so. I think you heard some similar cautions from previous speakers.

Given the nature of the times, it is also essential, I think, to be far more explicit today than I was in my previous remarks, as the rule of law internationally and increasingly domestically in our southern neighbour, the United States, is withering away alongside diplomatic norms.

While then I recommended extending the rapid response mechanism and labour provisions of the CUSMA to Canada and the United States, I also suggested raising the bar on environmental protections across the three CUSMA borders, and I suggested changing practices to ensure that states like Canada were protected from litigation should they seek to implement more stringent climate policy. I also called for ridding the CUSMA agreement of the vestiges of investor-state arbitration as it applies to the Mexican energy sector and noted that the Coalition of Trade Ministers on Climate has called for similar measures.

Now, while I still would agree with these matters today, I frankly no longer see a rushed renegotiation of this agreement. Granted, at the time, I also had concerns, but I certainly do not now consider it to be in Canada's interest. As I imagine you know, on Friday, the United States scuttled the International Maritime Organization agreement aimed at reducing emissions in the shipping sector, and they did so reportedly in the most undiplomatic of forms.

Trump has implemented tariffs on Canadian goods under section 232, which I know you will have heard about from Unifor, and under the IEEPA. The latter had been formally struck down as illegal, as I imagine you know, in U.S. federal courts, and now Trump is appealing this to the Supreme Court. However, the section 232 tariffs have already had devastating consequences for Canadian jobs in the steel and automotive sectors.

Our government seems to be caving on all manner of issues to Trump's agenda, the most egregious ones including the border security bill, which may violate Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the rescinding of the digital services tax, something [Technical difficulty—Editor] negotiating tactic in this CUSMA renegotiation.

I'm particularly concerned with the apparent closed-door negotiations on energy, including the Keystone XL pipeline, which a Toronto Star journalist recently described as the “zombie pipeline” that seems to be able to rise from the dead. The current government seems to be employing this a strategy to appease the U.S. President.

TC Energy, formerly TransCanada, has described itself for some years as the single largest Canadian investor in Mexico, but it has also established major offices in Houston, Texas, and two of its senior executives there, who I believe are married, have traded off positions as senior advisers to Trump in the first and now the second Trump presidencies.

TC Energy has built much of the infrastructure that has led to the reversal of Mexican energy sovereignty so that the country is now dependent on U.S. fracked gas to feed its electrical grid. The implications of this gas for the actual greening of emissions are dubious at best and have not been thoroughly studied.

Despite Trump calling out critically that Canada is a net exporter of energy to the United States, the Keystone XL pipeline may be welcomed because the U.S. gulf refineries have spare capacity to process Canadian bitumen and Mexican heavy oil, and transporting these fuels to the American oil heartland would boost American petrochemical jobs, use their fixed capital and retain value-added in the United States rather than allowing for the creation of Canadian jobs through processing these hydrocarbons at home. Canadian-Mexican hydrocarbon exports to the U.S. remain geostrategic for the U.S.

I'm a proponent of looking toward a future beyond oil and gas. Even if I were not, the construction of the Keystone XL pipeline or further pipelines connecting the United States to our energy grid reduces our national options for how to allocate our hydrocarbon resources. We must avoid any agreement around energy that involves Canada committing to either exporting more bitumen or importing hydrocarbons, notably fracked gas and shale oil, from the United States. Either of these would decrease our options to build non-hydrocarbon electricity systems and climate-friendly infrastructure, and our ability to create protected Canadian jobs in a modern green energy sector, which is something that other parts of the world are leading in.

Finally, given that this is the Standing Committee on International Trade, I feel compelled to comment that, as a member of the Jewish Faculty Network, I must state that it is incumbent on the committee to cancel the Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement until Israel respects the civil rights of Palestinians as guaranteed under international law.