Justice Committee on May 4th, 2006

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

From my perspective as a Liberal, the concerns about the bill would be with human rights and justice issues. To me, the security is just mechanics. As Liberals we have complaints with and would like to study the area of human rights. I would tend to agree with Mr. Moore in that respect.

I also agree with Mr. Comartin that with the amount of work in the committee, we wouldn't have as much time. I would suggest that whatever committee it's at reconstitute a subcommittee including as many as possible of the people who were on it before--no matter what committees they're on—so that those people who have already spent hundreds of thousands of taxpayers' dollars getting witnesses and everything for it be allowed to complete their work and do a report.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

The chair has a couple of comments. This particular review, because of the way it was originally structured, is due back into the House no later than June 23. I don't think there's anybody around the table who believes that we can accomplish that task within that timeframe if we are starting fresh. At some point the House leaders are going to have to go back to the House to get an extension or a revision to whatever procedures would be there to accomplish this review.

The suggestion by Mr. Bagnell and the comments by Mr. Comartin need not be seen as mutually exclusive. It might actually be doable--no matter which committee presides structurally over the review--to have a subcommittee constructed either of this committee or of the public safety committee, which would be composed of most of the members who did the work in the last Parliament. I know they completed most of their work. We're in a public meeting now, so I'll just leave out there the question of how it happened that they didn't manage to finish, since they came so close. One of the reasons, of course, was that the House fell in a relatively unplanned fashion.

In any event, perhaps we could just leave those comments on the record now and each party could deal with the appropriate House leader and minister and make sure they're informed of our views, unless you want to send something to the minister and wait to see what comes back on that issue. Is that okay?

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

If I may say so, Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Comartin had the right idea to get the subcommittee...and the chairs.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Yes, I'm including that. That's correct.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I think he also said organized crime was one of the bills up for review. What area is that from?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

That's a fresh review.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Maybe we need to look at that as well, just to make sure we're aware of these bills, or where they ought to be.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

We need to determine whether the other committee or this committee is the right place for the organized crime.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Exactly.

These things need to be taken to our House leaders and to our minister and we need to make sure that's the way it should be, because I see our agenda getting really huge. I'm not copping out on any work, but I was in on it, and I know how long a session we're looking at.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

If it helps, members, when you take a look at the ministerial responsibilities here for the statutes involved, it is quite appropriate for the Bill C-36 review to come to the justice committee. It is the justice minister who would carry most of--not all, but a lot of--the sections. It was really quite a big bill. Organized crime comes under the Criminal Code and that's under the justice minister.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

We can't solve all these riddles here at this meeting. Mr. Comartin has suggested that we hand these things over to a steering committee and let them be hammered out there. I'm prepared to take that approach.

We will have a last comment from Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I'd like to say something about organized crime, to avoid any misunderstanding. The committee's mandate is not to review all of the act's provisions, but rather the specific provision allowing police officers to carry out unlawful acts under certain circumstances. Such acts are similar to entrapment, which the Supreme Court has declared legal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that we will be examining section 24, not the entire act.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Let's put this over to a steering committee. All the comments have been helpful.

The remaining issue is whether we shall embark on our work plan right now.

We know we have to do estimates. This is Thursday. Can I ask the clerk if it would be doable if members wished to embark on estimates at one of the meetings next week? Can you tell us what the windows of meetings are for this committee?

[The Clerk]

We're supposed to meet on Tuesday and Thursday from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

They are on Tuesday and Thursday from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. It's a little late notice for estimates for Tuesday next week. If Mr. Moore doesn't have any guidance on that, we'll wing it. Can I suggest that we do estimates as the first order of business here, since we only have the two reviews? The reviews are going to be long.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chairman, statutorily, do bills take precedence over the estimates? Which has priority: a bill or the estimates?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I don't think there's any established priority between a bill and the estimates. Both are referred to committee. We have no bills referred to us now, but we do have estimates referred to us.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

When is the deadline for estimates?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

There is a deadline for estimates, but no deadline for bills.

Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Tuesday would be too early for estimates.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Yes.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

So it would just be deliberations....

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I would agree. Therefore, the question is whether we begin with a presentation on estimates from the justice minister. We usually have the minister in first for the macro, for the wide-angle-lens view.

Why don't I suggest this? We will go to steering committee to discuss future business. If the chair can arrange an appearance by the minister and appropriate officials to lead off the estimates next Thursday afternoon, I will arrange it and give notice. If I can't, we'll put the whole thing over to steering committee and begin scheduling estimates as soon as is practicable and deal with the other questions involving the reviews. Is that okay?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Yes.