Justice Committee on Sept. 19th, 2006

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I have no idea.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

You have no idea. So of the thousands of cases in Canada, you hand-pick eight, and you want to eliminate the mechanism that's going to protect Canadians, without even knowing whether it worked or not.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The point is that it's not simply rehabilitation, and that, I think, is a serious issue. If you look at these only in terms of rehabilitation and not denunciation and deterrence, I think that is a serious mistake. In those case, even if each of those eight never again ripped an aorta of a little baby and snapped her neck, I would say that simply for deterrence Canadians think that's inappropriate, that someone should not serve a conditional sentence for doing that to a baby.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Survey after survey shows that what Canadians and all other people want from the justice system is to be safe. They want the person not to reoffend. After prison systems have been failing for years, you're removing the mechanism that academics have suggested is making some headway, without even knowing if it's been successful in the eight cases.

In those eight sentences, what were some of the conditions that would help the person? What would a person have received in those particular eight hand-picked cases? What was in their conditional sentences, other than being at home in their houses?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I don't know.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

You have no idea of the benefits the conditional sentences provided to those eight people. Academics, some of our members from the Bloc, and Mr. Ignatieff have suggested the progress this type of sentencing makes toward the objective Canadians want from the justice system. Some of this evidence is in the book The Virtual Prison: Community Custody and the Evolution of Imprisonment, written by one of the experts, Julian Roberts, who is editor of the Canadian Journal of Criminology and Criminal Justice. It suggests that offenders given community custody orders are punished, yet also given the opportunity to change their lives in ways that would be impossible in prisons.

Ms. Kane, I'm sure the department must have access to research that outlines some benefits for conditional sentencing. Could you comment on some of that research?

[Catherine Kane]

The department has some research. I believe it's been provided to the committee; if not, we can make it available.

Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer with respect to the benefits of conditional sentences. We would certainly like to do more. Professor Roberts has done some research for the department. He's done surveys with criminal justice system professionals and he's done surveys with victims. As noted in his book, he's very much a proponent of conditional sentences. There are certainly cases in which they work very effectively. Then there are others in which society, the public, and others, including victims of crime, react very negatively to them, and cases in which people are not rehabilitated, but there's still not enough time to have tracked those individuals, and it's very difficult to look at a particular case and that person's own recidivism or rehabilitation after the fact. Unfortunately, we're quite limited in the data that's available to do that kind follow-up research.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

If you go back to the speeches at second reading, there was a lot of research mentioned by many speakers, myself included. If a person's been through a conditional sentence, and you compare the data with the person who's been through the prison system, which person is less likely to reoffend?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Just a minute. First of all, you're comparing apples and oranges. Those who have been in the prison system have obviously been there for reasons different from the ones--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay, then let me ask about the ones who are in for similar reasons, for similar difficulty of offence.

[Catherine Kane]

It's impossible even to answer which of two people who have had the exact same sentence under similar circumstances is likely to reoffend. That's a question you should pose to a criminologist who has had an opportunity to attempt to devise a methodology to do that research.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

We are going to ask a criminologist; I thought the department would have done some research on this before making such a serious move.

I have one last question for the minister. As you mentioned, aboriginal people are disproportionately incarcerated, and that's a big problem. We're not talking about the victims, because that's what I've just outlined. If they're more victimized, they could be even more victimized now that we're taking away some of the healing that they could have. Related to the ones who are incarcerated--I'm not talking about the victimized ones--what are you doing to solve the failure in the Canadian justice system to reduce the incarceration of aboriginal people, especially given that this will increase it?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I notice you're very dismissive of victims, and it's unfortunate.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'm just dismissive on this question.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Our government is concerned about rebalancing the criminal justice system.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That's not my question.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You continually talk about the failure of the prison system. It wasn't my government that was in power for the last 13 years. If the criminal justice system has failed in respect of our prisons, you might want to examine why that occurred.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

You're in charge now. I just want to ask you what you're going to do. These mechanisms are stopping the victims from being victimized again. I just want to ask what you're going to do about the incarcerated aboriginal people.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I can tell you that a person who's incarcerated for break and enter will not break and enter into someone's home.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

If they learn crime and get incarcerated again--

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Bagnell, your time is up.

Mr. Petit, go ahead, please.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for your presence this afternoon and for having stated over time with the committee.

I had an opportunity to hear all of the questions that were put to you. All opposition party questions focused on helping criminals rather than good honest people and victims. Everyone seems concerned about outcomes for offenders, but no one seems worried about the good people and the victims.

Earlier on, a distinction was made between violent and non-violent offences. I'm looking at the synopsis of these offences. In my region, we had problems with procuring for almost two years. Young girls under 14 were getting embroiled in gangs and it was all drug-related, cocaine-related. It led to two years of suffering, and yet, everyone was saying that there was no violence. People were growing and selling drugs, but there was no violence. There was nothing.

Drugs led to theft, procuring and violence. Mr. Ménard said earlier on that he didn't like your philosophy on things. Well, it is much more representative of good honest people and the victims. I would like your opinion on this particular distinction.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.

If some people on this committee want to give the impression that some of us are more concerned about good honest people than others... I am just as concerned about the good people in my riding as you are in yours. If there are problems related to prostitution in your riding, charges can be brought pursuant to sections 210, 211 and 212 of the Criminal Code. Don't confuse the issues, and try to be more rigorous.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Don't be holier-than-thou.