Justice Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[Tony Cannavino]

Statistics Canada is lacking those statistics.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I am not saying that you have the wrong impression, but it remains an impression.

You agree with me that...

[Tony Cannavino]

It is not just an impression, I'd say.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

But let me move to my second question, because we have no statistics here. So, you can't come before parliamentarians and tell them to do away with this tool used by judges because of a public safety issue, when you have no figures on conditional sentences. That has already been mentioned.

We have no statistics on recidivism. More specifically, there is a missing piece to the puzzle, which is not your fault or mine. It means that we will not be adopting this bill quickly, and that we will be asking for studies to be carried out, for instance on rehabilitation.

So I move to my second question. How do you feel the judiciary has used this tool of conditional sentences? For instance, one of the recommendations made by the Canadian Police Association is to include within Bill C-9 all offences which are not covered. You would like us to add child luring, the removal of a child from Canada, and other offences to Bill C-9?

[Tony Cannavino]

Absolutely.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you have information indicating that judges, in the case of the sentences you are proposing, imposed suspended sentences?

[Tony Cannavino]

The reason why we are more than happy that something will be done is because judges, over the years, have given different interpretations of what was supposed to be applied in 1996. But, for economic reasons, judges have greatly exaggerated the use of suspended sentences.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

In 6 per cent of cases?

[Tony Cannavino]

No. Just go to any courthouse, sit down and listen to the sentences which are handed down. Then compare the crimes which have been committed with the sentences which have been handed down, and you will realize that what is happening is a complete joke.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

It doesn't say that in your brief.

[Tony Cannavino]

In our brief, we also call upon the government to include in its bill certain offences or crimes which would otherwise be beyond our reach if Bill C-9 were adopted. We also talk about the people who will not be affected by the 10-year threshold, those who receive a sentence of less than 10 years.

Let me give you an example...

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

No, wait. I would like to ask you a question before hearing your example. You are talkative, but I would like us to examine specific facts.

[Tony Cannavino]

I can give you more than one concrete example.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

No, I would like to ask you my question first.

You would like us to include these offences because, as you say, they would not otherwise lead to a sentence of 10 or more years.

[Tony Cannavino]

It is because these offences may not seem violent, but in reality they are extremely violent. For example, drug trafficking...

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

That is not what I am asking you. I am not claiming that the only criteria for handing down a suspended sentence is based on the degree of violence.

Your brief has many weaknesses. I do not deny the fact that you are active in the field in question, but you are only giving us impressions. Unfortunately, we lawmakers do not pass legislation on the basis of impressions. Consequently, I would like you to tell me in how many cases, with regard to the offences you are proposing we include, judges have imposed prison sentences.

[Tony Cannavino]

That is not what we were asked to do. We could do that. We could come on board with a government group from the department in question. If opposition members also come on board, we would be pleased to give you the documentation. But we are here for a very short period of time. However, if you wish, we would gladly meet with you in committee to provide you with more information.

Our contention is that the underlying principle of the bill is a good one. The bill will impose stricter conditions. However, I think we should look beyond the 10-year threshold, because some crimes, which don't appear to be very serious, would not be dealt with adequately.

A little earlier, it was hard for me to keep still. It is true that I am rather talkative, but the fact remains that we see what is happening on the ground. When someone tells me that drug trafficking is not a serious offence, that when a person has drugs to sell them, that is not serious, I would say that, on the contrary, it is very serious.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Judges have not acted in the way you have described. Statistics do not reflect what you say.

But we do agree on one thing, that is that there are offences in the Criminal Code which are subject to two-year prison sentences, but these offences are just as serious as others which are subject to a 10-year prison sentence. It is not the only criteria.

I would have liked to hear the witnesses explain how judges have misused this tool, which is a marginal measure within the legal system.

[Tony Cannavino]

Mr. Ménard, the best facts at my disposal are the police officers' testimonies. The people involved in this area, those on the front lines, are our police officers who are assisting victims and who are intercepting people committing crimes. There are also those who are trying to help out organizations. In fact, many groups are trying to be of assistance.

I am not questioning the good intentions of the organization that represents the people beside me.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Are you questioning the fact that conditional sentences of imprisonment constitute a marginal measure? We are talking about 6% of sentences.

[Tony Cannavino]

No, not at all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Monsieur Ménard, your time is up. Thank you.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chairman, time goes by so quickly with a man of Tony's quality that one does not even notice.

Why do we not go out for supper together? It would not be a date, please don't misunderstand me!

[Tony Cannavino]

You would have a problem if it was a date, because I have been married for 34 years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Comartin.