Justice Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[Pierre-Paul Pichette]

I just want to say that when we're talking about drug trafficking, it's important to remember that the consequences for society can be significant. That is how we see it--in other words, that we're talking about violence against another person, but also against society as a whole. We have only to see the harmful effects of drug use on our young people to understand that.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do I have time for one more question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

One.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you. You're too kind.

[Graham Stewart]

I was just going to say that drug trafficking and many of the offences we're talking about here are descriptive categories that engender in one's mind a particular offence, and usually a very serious one. But in fact it actually describes a huge range of behaviour, from circumstances that are relatively minor to very serious. It ranges in everything from two people who are sharing a joint to importing shiploads of heroin.

Again, I think that is the problem with using such arbitrary criteria, as opposed to good judgment, which can only be done on an individual basis.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

You mentioned that the costs of incarceration will increase by 20%. I believe you were the one who made that statement.

For the benefit of Committee members, could you document that assertion?

[Graham Stewart]

That actually came from the parliamentary briefing papers, from the parliamentary library. It indicated that the estimates at that point for the implementation of this bill would result in an increase in the federal prison population of 300 to 400, which is a 3% increase, and an increase of about 3,000, or 20%, in federal-territorial prisons.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Deputy Chief Pecknold, I wanted to say to you I was really happy with your presentation. It understated a number of other things I didn't agree with, but I've been a strong proponent for a long time of trying to deal with amendments to the Criminal Code on a piecemeal basis, which seems to be the pattern of both the previous government but even more so this one.

One of the difficulties we have, and this is why I'm wondering if you or your association have done any thinking about how to do this.... We are hearing back—and, again, it was true, I think, with both governments, the current and the previous one—that trying to do an omnibus bill, even if it was only the sentencing part of the code, would be a monumental undertaking and there were immediate things that needed to be dealt with.

They've recently done away with the Law Commission. I thought they were one of the groups that might very well have been able to prepare, perhaps, a white paper, a working paper. Now that the Conservatives have cut that, is there anybody else in the academic field who could do this work? And I'm including your own association in that. I'm assuming you don't have the resources, but do you know of anybody in the country who would be able to take on that work?

[Clayton Pecknold]

We have, in the past, worked with the Law Commission on a lot of bills and things like that. Quite frankly, I was unaware they had been decommissioned.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Completely gone.

[Clayton Pecknold]

I don't know of any specific organization. Our organization, of course, is an amalgam of all the police organizations across this country and we draw on our resources individually.

What I could say, and I can say and I'm authorized to say on behalf of the association, is that we would certainly offer our support and undertaking to whatever agency was able to do that, whatever academic aspect of society was able to work on that. We would acknowledge, of course, that it's an enormous undertaking, but I would suggest that we don't want to shrink from an undertaking simply because of its enormity.

Beyond that, I would simply add that this is something that we, as an association, will continue to suggest as we move through every bill. Through every aspect of legal reform that comes before Parliament, we'll continue to push for a reduction in complexity and for a rationalization of the criminal law, especially with respect to those powers and substantive offences that we use practically every day.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I make the same speech in the House about once every two weeks. I can't say that it's penetrated into the powers that be.

Have you looked at any other jurisdictions, England, Australia, or the United States, where they've done a substantial review or carried out a substantial reform of their criminal codes?

[Clayton Pecknold]

On occasion we do engage in some studies. We engaged recently in a study where senior officers were sent to Europe to study investigational practices, in particular in the area of law with respect to disclosure in the criminal trial process. I don't know the specifics with respect to the law in England, but there were some best cases there or some legal precedents that one would say—not in the court context, but in the case of legislation—we felt could be imported into our system and looked at.

So it's out there and we have participated in studies with respect to it.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Gray-Donald, the list of charges that you've enunciated today as ones that should not qualify for consideration for conditional sentences—I'm anticipating the answer, but I have to ask it anyway—do you have any statistics as to how often, either on an annual basis or over the last few years, those particular charges have been the subject of conditional sentences?

[Krista Gray-Donald]

No, I don't have statistics, unfortunately. We're not in the business of doing statistics. I do, however, have anecdotal evidence that backs up some of them--for example, voyeurism. I received a call from a 16-year-old victim in New Brunswick last week whose father had videotaped her while she was changing, and he received a conditional sentence. Yet she's left with the feelings and the hurt. She feels like she's been raped, and she has all of the side-effects that go along with sexual assault, yet he received a conditional sentence.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Those are all my questions, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You still have time, Mr. Comartin, if you need to use it. No?

Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have three points I wanted to touch upon regarding conditional sentences.

Mr. Pichette, what is your impression of how the criminal population views conditional sentences? Is it viewed as a “get out of jail free” card, or is it viewed as genuine supervision? There was some mention made that a conditional sentence actually has a longer supervision period than a custodial disposition, but is it actually viewed that way? Is it viewed by the criminal population as genuine supervision? I'd surely be surprised if both levels of supervision were viewed, in any sense, as close or similar.

On that same point, probation also serves a sense of supervision, a limited sense, like a conditional sentence. Obviously, there'd be longer periods of probation for someone who had a custodial disposition versus a conditional sentence. Could you touch upon that?

[Pierre-Paul Pichette]

Mr. Brown, in terms of the dynamic underlying the negotiations between defence and Crown lawyers, it is clear that the ability to use provisions such as this to secure a conditional sentence, as opposed to a term of imprisonment, for individuals that are apprehended and brought to trial, will obviously be part of the discussions.

I have no statistics to support my theory, but I can tell you that this is common practice when there are discussions among Crown counsel.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I'd also like to get your impressions, and Mr. Pecknold's too, about this: in terms of the reality of the court system, in the courts I've been in and witnessed.... I'll give you an example. In the Brampton courthouse, close to Toronto, the largest courthouse in the area of my riding, if you look at the plea court, there are 300 or 400 sentencing submissions on some of the dockets in one day. So when we talk about consideration for re-offending, is there actually adequate time to have any discretion, to investigate the genuine ability for a re-offence when you have 300 or 400 potential sentencing submissions and pleas in one day? Do you believe there's adequate time allotted for that?

[Clayton Pecknold]

If I understand the question correctly, you're talking about the degree of plea bargains with respect to conditional sentence orders. I was looking at one of the stats--it was before you, as well--a guilty plea in almost 90% of indictable offences. We who work within the system every day know that.... I don't know if I'd use the term “get out of jail free” card, but it's certainly an incentive, in my opinion, for a guilty plea.

On the other hand, we could argue that we save costs, as the police, in terms of witnesses and having to go to court. But we'd suggest there's a further hidden cost in terms of the perception of the people we deal with, the victims of crime we deal with, and their faith in the system and their sense of closure.

Perhaps I might add, I've been listening to the discussion and I see a lot of the stats. They're very offender-focused. We certainly understand the need, from a crime prevention standpoint, to be offender-focused, but our association suggests that we also need to be victim-focused and focused on the outcomes of crimes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I have a general question for everyone.

I heard some comment about the fact that there would be a requirement for increased use of prisons when you eliminate the use of conditional sentences for these potential crimes. What is your view long-term, not just a short-term picture, if we had this level of deterrence and if we removed the perceptions of simply a slap on the wrist--not two months or three months out, but five or ten years out? Do you believe it will be the cause of having fewer people in the prison system or more? What do you think the long-term benefits of this are? Will it be an adequate deterrent and send the right message, or will it actually cause the jails to fill up even more?

[Pierre-Paul Pichette]

Canadians' sense of security is one of the issues that all police forces have to deal with. It is connected to the police forces themselves, but also to the rationale behind our legal system and the sentence associated with the crime, as well as the repercussions for society as a whole.

We are in favour of Bill C-9, but we believe that ultimately, the public's perception will change if those who commit crimes are put in jail and have to serve a certain amount of time in institutions for the crime they have committed. I believe that that is where the benefit lies. Allow me to draw an analogy. Car theft in Quebec is becoming, both within our own police organization and in the court system, a crime for which short sentences are handed down. It is no longer a crime.

I think we have to be careful how we use the provisions of the Criminal Code, in order not to trivialize them. If we trivialize them, the goal pursued by the Criminal Code will not be met.