Justice Committee on Oct. 4th, 2006

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Muise and for the Canadian Bar Association.

In terms of the input you've given us today, was any of that based upon any consultation or meetings with members of your organization?

With respect, Mr. Muise, I know you put together a report in 2004. If I recall, it was based upon numerous town halls. The question to you, Mr. Muise, is what was the extent of that consultation for the 2004 report?

For the CBA, have you had an opportunity to mail out a survey to members of the Canadian Bar Association or have any formal sessions at one of your conferences on this?

[John Muise]

The Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness went out to ten sites across Ontario: Belleville, Hamilton, London, Newmarket, Orillia, Ottawa, Peterborough, Sudbury, Toronto, and Windsor. We invited some guests, and some other people just said they were coming too. Anybody who wanted to come would come. There were 150 people, including a variety of front-line criminal justice professionals and including social workers and people on the social side, crime victims, and survivors.

We had note-takers. The focus of our doing this was about potential criminal justice reform. We basically asked folks to tell us what they think is wrong with the system. Where themes were enunciated again and again at all of these sites or most of these sites, they made it into this report.

I'll give you an example so that you can understand how it unfolded. Some people would come and say they thought we should take DNA from everybody at birth because it would be a great crime-fighting mechanism. Well, be that as it may, it's not going to sustain a charter test and it's probably not the right thing to do from a human rights perspective. Others who were more informed said we should take DNA at arrest and maybe embargo it or something until somebody's found guilty. But they said we should get it while we have the alleged offender in custody. Others would have varying sorts of notions about that particular subject.

So arising out of all of those, we tried to create recommendations, and we used two barometers for every single one of the recommendations. One, do we think it would sustain a charter test, knowing full well that would be required for every one of them? If the answer was, yes, we thought so—because we don't sit on the Supreme Court.... The other pillar was whether this was going to have an impact on an accused to mount a fair and vigorous defence. We're not in the business of making recommendations that would hurt somebody's right to a fair trial. We don't believe that's what public safety and victims' rights are about; they're not about taking away, they're about improving the system. So those were our two pillars.

Arising out of those consultations over the course of several months at those ten sites, we arrived at the 60 recommendations, 39 of which are federal in nature. These are available on our home page, at ccfaa.com, and if anybody wants a hard copy, I'll be happy to mail them to you. If we do that, though, we won't be able to pay for Mr. Thompson's witness expenses. But they're there to be viewed, and I'm happy to talk to anybody about them afterwards or later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Brown, do you have another short question?

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I'm just hoping for a response from the CBA.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Brooks or Ms. Thomson.

[Tamra Thomson]

The submission you have before you was prepared by the members of the criminal justice section. The executive of the section comprises the officers, who are elected, and the chairs of each of our branch sections—branches in every province and territory in Canada. Those people in turn consult with their various branch section members, and then all of that comes together to form the input you see before you. It's based on principles that have been adopted through our national council—the CBA's parliament, if you will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Mr. Murphy, we're going to be concluding our meeting here very quickly, but you have time for one question.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Very briefly, I would just say that, from the CBA brief, I got their answer there. I was going to ask about how the criminal justice section is not the whole Canadian Bar, just so people know that, but that's fine. What proportion of the criminal justice section are defence lawyers and what proportion are prosecutors? I'd like to know that, very briefly.

Secondly, on page 5 of your brief, there's something that is very short but has to be full of background information that you couldn't put in—and I appreciate the time constraints and so on. It says:

In its current form, the proposal will undoubtedly lead to more trials as a result of fewer guilty pleas. That factor alone will eliminate any perceived justice efficiencies, and certainly increase demands for legal aid funding.

Of course, legal aid funding is already under strain.

I know time's an issue here, but if you had some background information on those two big statements, I think we'd all appreciate receiving them in the mail. I don't think you can answer them in three seconds.

[Adrian Brooks]

Yes, we will provide you with whatever information we can on the proportion of prosecutors and defence lawyers.

[Tamra Thomson]

I'm not sure about the entire membership of the section, but I do know the executive is fairly well balanced between crown prosecutor and defence. There are some who start on one side and then go to the other and back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Murphy. It's unfortunate that we didn't have more time for your line of questioning.

I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing in front of our committee. We've had a good discussion, I believe. It could be a little longer, but as it is with many of these meetings, we just don't get into some things as deeply as we should. But your attendance here has been very much appreciated.

I'm going to be suspending procedures now for thirty seconds. We have some business to contend with before we end up back in the House, if the committee members would stay.

The witnesses are free to leave. Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]