Justice Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Preston.

It should be pointed out that a question was posed to a previous group of witnesses, not unlike the question Mr. Preston just posed. What was going on prior to 1996 that would invite a change to the Criminal Code dealing with conditional sentences? Has empirical evidence been presented to the committee? I don't think anyone has ever done so at this point in time, that I know of, and nobody across the country, that I can recall, was ever consulted broadly.

[Jonathan Rudin]

Actually, though, the 1996 amendments were the result of—

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Consultation.

[Jonathan Rudin]

—consultation in a House committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

To whom?

[Jonathan Rudin]

Well, there was a House committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

And was there empirical evidence? I'd like to know what empirical evidence there was at the time.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

There was some. Maybe you could read some Hansard from that point, and I'll ask some questions.

First of all to the Barreau, were you consulted on this bill?

[Giuseppe Battista]

On this bill?

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Yes.

[Giuseppe Battista]

Yes, we provided a document; we responded to the minister. The people in charge of the liaison committee sent a letter to the minister. I believe madame la greffière has a—

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Some of the other organizations before us have not been consulted as much. The consultation net was not as wide, it would appear.

Also, when the minister was before us he didn't seem to buy into the idea that in the courtroom there could be some under-sentencing as well, as a result of this type of bill—in other words, for people going around the system at whatever level, whether it was the judge on his final sentencing after a conviction, or the prosecutor not charging high enough.

What do you think of those areas? Do you think they will be impacted?

[Giuseppe Battista]

If I understand the question correctly, you're asking if prosecutors were faced with a situation where, under this legislation, they would necessarily have to impose jail, would that maybe cause some prosecutors not to charge, for example, but to indict?

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Or cause a judge not to sentence where he would have given a conditional sentence. Instead of going into the prison situation, he opts lower into the suspended sentence situation, with perhaps probation afterwards.

[Giuseppe Battista]

That definitely used to happen before 1996; there is no question about that. The court of appeals had maintained those situations because it was obvious that sending people to jail would be disastrous.

The problem is that now there is an additional tool in those circumstances that we may lose. But again, that was very limited because judges only had the probation. They now have something more, so they can use it a little more.

But there were exceptional cases before 1996. They were very, very exceptional; but with the introduction of this sentencing provision, what it did.... As I said, my empirical experience in Quebec is that people who used to get suspended sentences are now getting conditional sentences, so they're being monitored more than before, and obviously those who could qualify because they meet the criteria are also followed through in a more rigorous manner.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Jonathan?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Ms. Barnes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I just wanted to see if Mr. Rudin wanted to add anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Did you want to make a comment?

[Jonathan Rudin]

No, that's fine.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

That concludes our session; the time is up.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

On a point of order, I want to clarify what I heard from Mr. Battista.

What I heard coming from you, sir, was—

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Thompson, let me ask, are the witnesses willing to stay for a few more minutes?

[A voice]

Yes.