Evidence of meeting #27 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was courts.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

George Biggar  Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario
René Guitard  Director, Clinique juridique francophone de l'Est d'Ottawa
Kevin Wilson  Senior Counsel, Federal Prosecution Service, Department of Justice
Richard Coleman  Coordinator, Toronto Drug Treatment Court, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I'd like to call the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order.

We're continuing our examination of the estimates and the three programs that are on our agenda. We have witnesses from Legal Aid Ontario. Along with them will be the drug treatment court in the latter part of the session today.

Before the committee we have Mr. George Biggar, vice president of policy, planning, and external relations; and Mr. René Guitard.

Welcome to the committee, gentlemen. I thank you for making an appearance here. If you could make your presentations now, we'll then have some questions that we would like to ask you at the end.

The floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

George Biggar Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and honourable members.

Speaking on behalf of Legal Aid Ontario, I'd like to advise you that we provide legal services to over one million low-income Ontarians per year, through our three programs—the duty counsel program, the clinic services, and the legal aid certificate system—when these clients have their safety, their homes, their families, their incomes, or their freedom in jeopardy.

The biggest program in terms of numbers of people served is the duty counsel program. We schedule lawyers in most of the provincial courts every day, where they provide triage services to unrepresented parties who are appearing in court that day. Criminal duty counsel assist with pleas of guilty, speak to sentence, conduct many of the bail hearings, and assist with setting dates for trial and other adjournments. Family court duty counsel assist with early appearances, simple document preparation, and consent orders, and they provide representation in simple motions. The duty counsel program assisted 760,000 Ontarians in 2005-06.

The community legal clinic program provides essentially poverty law services, including assistance with matters concerning housing and income security. The clinics also engage in public legal education initiatives, community development, and law reform work. My colleague Mr. Guitard will address the clinic system in more detail in a few moments.

The part of the legal aid program in Ontario that receives the most attention is the certificate system, through which services are provided to about 110,000 Ontarians every year, in partnership with the private bar. Legal Aid Ontario provides these clients with a certificate that they can then take to the private lawyer of their choice. LAO then reimburses the lawyer's fees in the amount established by the tariff.

Certificates are issued in criminal matters where there is a likelihood that the accused will face time in jail; in family law matters involving custody, access, and support, primarily to women, many of whom have experienced domestic violence; and also to parents involved in child protection issues with the Children's Aid Society. Certificates are also issued in refugee matters and in certain other specified immigration cases. Occasionally we issue certificates for hearings before the National Parole Board; the Ontario Review Board, which deals with mental health issues under the Criminal Code; and the Consent and Capacity Board.

I'd like to turn to the financial eligibility criteria. Legal Aid Ontario serves really only the poorest of the poor. The financial criteria have not been increased for many years. In fact, they were dramatically reduced by 22% in 1995, to coincide with government cuts to welfare payments in Ontario that were introduced at that time. The rates have not been increased since that time. The result is that while the cost of living increases, more and more low-income people are ineligible for legal aid assistance.

In the way the Ontario financial eligibility criteria work, regardless of an applicant's actual cost for rent, transportation, and other living expenses, LAO has established maximum allowable limits for these costs. Every dollar of income above these allowable amounts is considered money that applicants can use to pay for a lawyer. These allowances are now unrealistically low and rarely cover the actual cost of the applicant's living expenses.

Most of LAO's clients are on some form of social assistance. The working poor, by and large, are not eligible to receive legal aid in Ontario. For example, a family of four earning $29,000 per year likely would not qualify for legal aid in Ontario. For an individual, the cut-off is about $18,000.

Our current financial situation is difficult and deteriorating. While LAO has received some project-specific funding in the last few years, we have not received an increase in our base funding since 1999.

In the intervening years, we have been absorbing over $44 million in inflationary and salary costs and increasing service demands in the certificate and duty counsel systems. We have depleted all of our reserves and are now in a structural deficit position of $10 million to $15 million per year. This deficit will continue to grow if additional base funding is not received. Hard choices will have to be made very soon.

All indications are that demand for legal aid services will increase, and there are good reasons for that. All legal aid plans in the country are under pressure caused by demographics, population growth, changes in the age of population, social trends, and increasing numbers of criminal charges.

Federal law and policy have a significant impact on legal aid demand. Changes in federal law and policy that are ongoing include more criminal charges being laid, and that results in an increasing demand for legal aid certificates. For every nine criminal charges laid, one accused person will require a legal aid certificate. Recent mass prosecutions of alleged gang members are creating an enormous pressure on our certificate system. Cases in these mass prosecutions can cost as much as $90,000 for each accused, compared to an average cost of $1,500 for a normal criminal legal aid case.

Recent legislation eliminating conditional sentences for certain criminal offences relate to offences that make up 80% of the criminal services provided by certificates. A possible effect of this change in the law is that more people who are facing potentially harsher sentences will plead not guilty, so more time will be tied up in prosecuting them, and legal aid will be compelled to expend more funds in defending them.

Recent changes in minimum penalties for offences involving firearms will also likely result in more people in jail, and thereby increase demand by jail inmates for legal aid services.

These changes in criminal law and the resulting demand for criminal certificates mean there are fewer and fewer resources for other areas of law, in particular for family law clients. Most family law clients are women, many of whom are single mothers.

LAO estimates that over the next three years, the cost of these new federal initiatives to the legal aid plan will be approximately $7.5 million.

I want to share with you that a large portion of the legal services that LAO provides involves areas of law that fall under federal responsibility. Criminal law, of course, is obviously a federal responsibility, but you may not all be aware that immediately above criminal law, in section 91 of the Constitution Act, is the federal power over marriage and divorce. Divorce law is therefore also a federal responsibility, and it significantly drives the cost and nature of services that are required by married family law litigants. Recent initiatives that have had significant effect on legal aid costs in this area include the child support guidelines, which are mandatory, and more recently the spousal support guidelines. I would also like to make you aware that 44% of all clinic work deals with areas of federal responsibility or interest, such as employment insurance, the Canada Pension Plan, and housing, and almost 70% of the national applications for refugee status are processed in Ontario.

In closing, what I would like to tell you is that at legal aid, we think Canadians believe the justice system must be fair. We believe that Canadians support the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and it has led to a court policy that there should be no conviction without representation. We believe that we must all see the justice system as an integrated whole--that if we are to put increasing resources into police and prosecution services, we must also, to be fair, fund the other side of the equation, and make sure that the defence is adequately funded to carry out its constitutional responsibilities.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Biggar.

Mr. Guitard, please go ahead.

3:40 p.m.

René Guitard Director, Clinique juridique francophone de l'Est d'Ottawa

Good afternoon. I am the director of the Clinique juridique francophone de l'Est d'Ottawa, which was the fifth legal aid clinic to open in Ottawa.

Existing services do not always meet our clients' legal aid needs. In Ottawa, we are doing everything we can to coordinate our services so our clients are not left to their own devices. There is currently very good collaboration between the legal aid office and the five community legal clinics.

The clinics also collaborate amongst themselves. They help each other when one clinic is overloaded and direct their clientele to whichever clinic specializes in a given area of the law. I am thinking of the University of Ottawa clinic, which offers services in small claims court with the help of law students who are supervised by a member of the Bar. However, the example I just gave does not necessarily apply everywhere in Ontario.

I would add that even though they try to meet their clients' needs every day, the clinics are often overloaded. Our clinic has been open since September 2003, and for the past year, our caseload had been as heavy as that of other clinics that have been operating in Ottawa for a long time.

Each legal clinic is responsible for a given geographic area. There is a clinic in central Ottawa, one in the south, one in the east and one in the west. Our clinic is in Ottawa east and has a special mandate to serve francophones, a group that is particularly affected by poverty. We regularly receive requests from other clinics to help francophones from all over Ottawa because those clinics are overloaded.

As the first point of contact for people who are not familiar with the workings of the justice system, we have found that there is a great demand for family law services, which are not covered by legal clinics, and only partly covered by legal aid offices.

Even people who are eligible financially often have trouble finding a lawyer because their area of the law is covered neither by the legal aid office or the legal clinics. This means there is a void in some areas of the law. There are also a lot of people who just miss meeting the eligibility criteria and who have a lot of trouble paying lawyers to help them.

I have worked in legal clinics for nearly 20 years, and, in my humble opinion, they are law offices that provide essential services to the most underprivileged people in our communities. This system costs less than paying lawyers in private practice.

I must say that legal clinics are currently at risk because the number of requests is increasing and Ontario's legal aid budgets are running a deficit.

Legal clinics specialize in legal representation in the area of housing law and income maintenance. This area includes many sub-specialities, such as welfare, disability benefits, employment insurance, worker's compensation and the Canada Pension Plan. Some clinics, including ours, also specialize in immigration and assisting victims of crime.

The clinics also have a community development mandate that includes prevention of legal problems through community legal education and legislative reform in areas related to poverty.

Mr. Chair, hon. members of the committee, thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Guitard.

I'm going to hold the committee members to five minutes on their questioning.

Go ahead, Mr. Bagnell.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Is your next round of funding agreed to for this year? Is that round increased? You named all the reasons your costs are going up, and there hasn't been an increase in years. Has this next round been approved? Are you finished negotiating it, and is there an increase?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

Is that question directed to me or Mr. Guitard?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

It is to both.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

Mr. Guitard's funding is included within the overall envelope of Legal Aid Ontario. I think Mr. Guitard's clinic is just starting their negotiation of funding for next year.

3:45 p.m.

Director, Clinique juridique francophone de l'Est d'Ottawa

René Guitard

That's right, yes.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

Most of the funding for Legal Aid Ontario is included in the provincial budget. It includes a significant transfer from the federal government pursuant to a contribution agreement.

There was a three-year funding agreement; it expired on March 31, 2006, and it was extended on precisely the same terms and conditions for the year, without any increase or reduction in the amount of federal funding. The programs that are cost-shared by the federal government are adult criminal legal aid, young offender criminal legal aid, and the refugee services provided by the certificate bar.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Given that this government has a whole slew of bills intended to incarcerate people for longer, and that your criminal funding therefore will make more people eligible, should they be successful—there will be far more people eligible for funding, because that's one of the criteria you mentioned at the beginning of your speech, that they could be incarcerated—what efforts has the government undertaken to negotiate higher contributions for you to cover this increased demand?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

There have been some ongoing intergovernmental negotiations. I'm a representative of the legal aid plan and not of the Ontario government, so we're not always at the table for those discussions; we assist the province and support the negotiations of the cost-sharing agreement. But I am aware that the issue of funding for legal aid was discussed significantly at the recent meeting of the provincial-federal-territorial justice ministers conducted in October in Newfoundland.

I read the press release with interest and noted that all of the provincial and territorial justice ministers were unanimously in support of increased federal funding. But the silence of the federal justice minister was also observable in the press release.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Or “deafening”?

I just have one more question. To quote you, you said most of the family law cases are women. That's precisely the problem for some of my constituents. Some men have come to me who have been having trouble with custody cases, saying they're not treated constitutionally fairly before the law, because women have access to all this funding that men don't.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

That's an issue of the financial eligibility criteria, largely. It's unlikely that many of the men who apply for legal aid, if they're working, will be financially eligible, although we offer services irrespective of gender in relation to family law matters, so that if the men are financially eligible and are facing the same issues as a woman would be, we will provide the service.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Do you have sufficient funding to ensure that every low-income person gets equal access before the law with high-income people?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

Absolutely not; it's not close.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you.

Mr. Ménard.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Basically, the committee members are trying to understand what the federal government's share of the cost of legal services should be and what kind of agreement we should recommend.

Regarding Ontario's budget, if there were an agreement whereby the federal government assumed half of the cost, how much would you receive and what would that mean for the services you provide? In terms of certificates, at what income level does a person qualify for legal aid services? How much does a lawyer who accepts a certificate—also known as a mandate in Quebec—receive?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

The total budget of Legal Aid Ontario is about $300 million a year. About $230 million of that is received from the provincial government, and it includes the federal transfer of approximately $50 million. Legal aid also receives revenue from client contributions and receives revenue as well from the interest on lawyers' mixed trust accounts, and that makes up most of the balance of the revenue.

If the government were to go to fifty-fifty funding, presumably the federal contribution would be increased by about $100 million, if the budget were to remain the same.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Okay.

But if someone accepts a legal aid certificate, what does that mean in terms of the legal aid tariff? How much does the lawyer receive? What does that amount represent in terms of the service provided?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

The legal aid tariff in Ontario has had only a very modest increase since 1987. It was increased by 5% in 2002 and 2003—to be precise, in each of those years. Currently, the lowest rate is about $72 per hour; the medium rate, depending on experience and seniority, is about $84 per hour; and the highest rate is $92 per hour. This compares with rates for lawyers in private practice that begin at probably $200—

3:50 p.m.

An hon. member

And go well up beyond that.

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario

George Biggar

The bar says that legal aid rates are essentially charity work.