Justice Committee on Nov. 1st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you. Mr. Rémillard, your time is up. There is some questioning here that we will engage in now, so please conclude.

[Rénald Rémillard]

Without the Court Challenges Program, there won't be any progress because there will be fewer court challenges. At that point, there'll be a real chance of regressing.

New statutes are passed, and some statutes can interfere with certain rights or force a regression. Ultimately, without the Court Challenges Program, the Francophone and Acadian communities will be distinctly more vulnerable with regard to their rights.

That completes my remarks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Rémillard.

I now would like to turn to Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Murphy, given the time, I may be cutting that time down to about four minutes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's not because you don't like what I'm about to say?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

No, I don't know what you're going to say, Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'll speak very quick then. I apologize to the translation people.

The bottom line is there is a good debate going on here, Mr. Thompson said it right, but the debate is really one of whether we're going to have, to put it plainly, any government funding in policy development and advocacy groups. We saw with the women's groups cuts and the cuts to come that the government doesn't feel it should be involved in funding advocacy groups or think tanks, and all of this “thinking”—and I'll use that term liberally—should be done by the private sector. And with that respect, I respect the points of view, but I do not agree with the points of view of Mr. Carpay and Mr. Williamson.

So I don't have any questions to ask them.

However, I'm asking myself some questions because I come from New Brunswick, where we have language rights under provincial laws and, of course, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, particularly under section 23.

Notwithstanding the fact that I tell all committee members that New Brunswick is a virtual paradise, we have problems achieving linguistic harmony. We've obviously used the Court Challenges Program to support the language rights of Acadians in New Brunswick.

If this program, which can help a minority group representing 40% of the population in New Brunswick, is cancelled, what will the Francophone linguistic communities outside Quebec do, in Manitoba or Edmonton, for example, if they can't rely on this program?

My question is for Mr. Rémillard. In the language field, what will happen if people can't afford a lawyer in order to assert their rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

That doesn't just apply to education. Mr. Williamson may say that

the parents of children can probably afford to get together and fight for a school, as we had to do in Moncton, New Brunswick, against the bilingual government. But in minority rights cases, such as the coverage of the RCMP in a province, you can see that may not get the groundswell of public support, but it's nonetheless very important to the francophones and Acadians in New Brunswick, for instance.

And the bottom line is—and speaking as quickly as I can with my four minutes or less—what are we going to do without this program to bolster minority language rights in New Brunswick and in the rest of the country where the minority is even less secure?

[Rénald Rémillard]

As regards challenges...

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Rémillard, I would like you to reply within a minute or so.

[Rénald Rémillard]

There may be a very significant decline in the number of court challenges based on language rights.

It would be important to emphasize as well that language rights, even though they often apply to individuals, are collective rights. They're for the community as a whole. When an individual is asked to institute proceedings or a challenge, it's the collective aspect that is overlooked.

In the case of services, there's always a problem when an individual is prepared to pay $100,000 for a challenge, when the impact is in fact collective and affects the Francophone community as a whole. It's somewhat the equivalent of what, in economics, is called a free rider, hence the need for a public policy. Funding is warranted in these circumstances. That's economic language.

The reasoning is that language rights are collective rights. Without the Court Challenges Program, there'd be a very significant decline in the number of court challenges.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to raise this question with the steering committee because, according to the rules, members have seven minutes. And it's not your prerogative to reduce the speaking time depending on the witnesses. We'll settle that in the steering committee. The rules state that members have seven minutes when there are witnesses.

Second, you're aware of the dramatic situation we're experiencing. We have a government that is quite heartless in achieving savings on the backs of people who need help, assistance from the government. That's the drama. The Court Challenges Program has $2.5 million a year. The current government couldn't care less about minorities and has chosen to make $1 billion in cuts and to take $5 million away from you over two years.

When you don't respect minorities, you don't deserve people's trust. Know that the Prime Minister made a fairly stupid statement in the House. He said he was abolishing the Court Challenges Program because his government would never introduce unconstitutional bills. I'd like to know your opinion on the subject.

Imagine the calibre of our Prime Minister and his concern! How do you think Canadians, Quebeckers and minorities can have confidence in this crypto head of state? May it please God that this government never becomes a majority government because the Prime Minister doesn't care about minorities. How can we respect a man who stands up in the House to say that his government will never introduce unconstitutional laws? Do you think that's the reason why the Court Challenges Program has been cancelled? What thoughts does our Prime Minister inspire in you?

[Chantal Tie]

I'm not really prepared to answer some of those questions, but I would just point out that any government in power inherits all of the legislation from the previous government as well. So even if they don't pass any laws that infringe on minority rights, there may be other laws passed by other governments that do, which they've inherited. So it's a collective and ongoing process.

[Rénald Rémillard]

Here's the only possible answer: ultimately, the Supreme Court is the arbitrator as to whether or not an act is constitutional. It's really up to the Supreme Court to determine whether an act is constitutional or unconstitutional.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do I have any time left?

One thing is quite incredible. Let's take the evolution of the rights of the language communities. Without this ability of the courts to take over, it is impossible to conceive how you can go and live and grow and develop.

The Court Challenges Program, for your communities, is what legal aid is for individuals. It's as though you started from the following principle: individuals will never need to go to court, and we'll abolish legal aid. Imagine the government using such pigheaded reasoning.

Once again, show us how important it is for the vitality, grandeur and nobility of our communities. Once again, may it please God that this government never forms a majority. I hope that you'll make people in your communities understand the danger that this government represents for minorities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Rémillard, did you want to reply to that? Very quickly, sir.

[Rénald Rémillard]

I'm going to turn the floor over to Christian Monnin.

[Christian Monnin, President, Federation of Associations of French-speaking Jurists of Common Law]

Thank you very much.

My name is Christian Monnin, and I'm President of the Association des juristes d'expression française du Manitoba.

To answer your question, Mr. Ménard, I can give you a concrete example of the results of the Court Challenges Program. You have one here before you, in the flesh.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

May I touch you?

[Christian Monnin]

I'm a Franco-Manitoban, and without this program my Francophone Manitoba would not exist as it does today. Thank you.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

When you think the Minister of Justice is from Manitoba!

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Monsieur Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[An hon. member]

Don't get angry!