Justice Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, the department has prepared this material for me, Mr. Bagnell. Secondly, I've consulted extensively with police.

One of the concerns that the police have had is the increasing number of restricted or prohibited firearms that they're finding in motor vehicles. It used to be that it was a rare event when a police officer found a restricted or prohibited firearm in a motor vehicle in the streets of Toronto, where I was speaking to the chief of police. Police officers from all over the city would come to look at the firearm. Now this happens on a regular, daily basis.

In the city of Montreal, for example, the chief there released a few months ago that in the last years there was a 25% increase in the use of handguns in crime. In my opinion, 25% is a significant increase.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

First, Minister, I would appreciate brief answers. I do not want to know the story of your life or hear a long-winded sermon. I have six questions and I want brief answers. I will not hesitate to interrupt you. It is my time, not yours.

The logical point of departure is 1996 when legislation was passed that already provided four minimum penalties for four types of offence involving firearms. Going by your reasoning, you seem to be saying that the crime rate for offences involving firearms has increased.

I would like to know what that rate is. How is it that in 1995, minimum penalties did not work? Why would they work now?

I want a short answer because I have five other questions to put to you.

I am talking about the crime rate for offences involving firearms. What is it that was not working in 1995, when we already had minimum penalties? And why would they work now?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

While the trend of firearms crimes has been generally downward, there have been some changes in recent years. The proportion of violent crimes involving firearms decreased to a low point of 2.2% in 2002, but it has increased to 2.5% in 2004. In proportional terms, this represents about a 10% increase. Therefore, while the overall and longer-term national trends show a decrease in gun crimes over the last few decades, certain specific types of violent gun crimes are increasing in some areas of the country.

For example, firearms homicides have increased quite dramatically in Toronto. I noted some of the success that the police have been having in using very effective policing methods, but that's always one half of the equation. In Winnipeg and in Toronto, gang-related homicides and the proportion of handguns used in violent crimes are a major cause for concern. That is why the proposals in this bill focus quite specifically on that matter, because of that specific problem that the—

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

In 1995, there were minimum penalties for four offences. Were studies made? What is the evidence? Thank you for the statistics; we will look at them. We have different statistics, but in 1995, according to your reasoning, there were minimum penalties for four offences, robbery, manslaughter, etc. So if the minimum penalties did not work in 1995, why would they work now?

Do you have any Canadian studies on how the Department made this assessment? Aside from the Conservative Party platform, is there any evidence, things that could satisfy this committee scientifically concerning the legislation you are proposing to us?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

In fact, the 1995 laws did help. If the member is suggesting, Mr. Chair, that we just get rid of the 1995 laws, we would see quite a dramatic increase in the firearms offences. If the member is saying to get rid of those mandatory minimum sentences that were there in 1995, there would be a huge difference that we would see.

The effect of the legislative measures in particular in mandatory minimum penalties is difficult to measure exactly because of numerous factors that could affect crime levels. A decrease in the proportion of violent crimes involving firearms began before the 1995 levels and continued to decline between 1995 and 2002. But there were, of course, other mandatory minimum penalties in effect already at that point.

In 1995, 5.4% of all violent crimes involved firearms. This proportion dropped to 2.2% in 2002, less than half of the percentage in 1995. Since 2002, however, the proportion of violent offences involving firearms has continued to increase.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay. I would like to know whether you think judges have done a bad job and have not handed out penalties that are severe enough or have failed to impose the compulsory minimum penalties. What is your reply to those who say, on a scientific basis, that people are deterred not by minimum penalties but by the possibility that they will be caught and tried?

What bothers me in your bill, with regard to the thoroughness which one can expect from a parliamentarian, is that I have the impression that you don’t have any studies documenting the consequences of minimum penalties. I have the impression that this is purely ideological.

What is your criticism of judges? In what way are the existing penalties not suitable? Do you have any studies by your Department? Do not quote the Americans to us. Since 1995, have studies been done to support the bill that is now before us? If not, we will have to vote against it.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

If what you're saying is that it's ideological to want to separate dangerous offenders from society, then it's ideological, because those dangerous offenders, if allowed out on the street, continue to commit crimes.

One specific study indicated that for every serious offence committed by an individual who was actually incarcerated for a year, 12 other offences are not committed. That involves 12 other victims, at a minimum. So the issue is that we believe that not only does it assist in deterring that, but it specifically incapacitates that particular criminal who would choose to use a firearm.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

My question is this: do you have any studies? Since 1995, has anyone at the Department of Justice done studies to support us in our conviction that minimum penalties are a deterrent? I know your point of view. It is known from coast to coast. But has someone at the Department done any studies since 1995, studies which you could put before us? Do not talk to me about Chicago, Michigan or New York, tell me about what is been done in Canada. Do you have studies, yes or no?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I can do better than that. All the statistics that I have provided to you from Canada were from Statistics Canada.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Has your department done any studies since 1995? What you say is not logical. Since 1995, there have been minimum penalties for offences involving firearms. You say that despite these minimum penalties, these offences have continued to climb. We have figures to the contrary.

Has your department been tracking the situation so that it can really persuade us that Bill C-10 is worthwhile. Do not tell me about Chicago, Michigan, New Jersey or New York. I am talking about the Canadian situation. Yes or no, has your department done any studies? The only studies you have are those by Julian Roberts, which prove the opposite of Bill C-10.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I understand that a number of studies were in fact on statistics provided to you, to the clerk.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

From your Department? Aside from the one by Julian Roberts, I have not seen any. I am talking about studies by your Department, not U.S. studies.

Yes or no, Ms. Besner, have any studies been done by Justice Canada?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, this is from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Are they statistics proving that increasing the penalties will have a deterrent effect? You can bring before this committee a study that says that increasing penalties will have a deterrent effect? You would be prepared to bet your place in paradise on it?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I find this quite a curious discussion, about a member who supported a gun registry that was absolutely ineffective in reducing crime in any way, despite $1 billion--

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

You are the one who does not support the Registry.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me finish. I've been listening to you for quite a while now. Now let me answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Monsieur Ménard--

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

The strange thing is that you are a Minister of Justice who does not believe in a firearm registry. That is strange for a Minister of Justice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Monsieur Ménard, your time is up.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You obviously don't want an answer.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you have any Canadian studies, yes or no?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Monsieur Ménard, your time is up. The minister can answer your question.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

It is your election platform.