Evidence of meeting #30 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was serious.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
What I can say is that I've provided all types of statistics to you, which you can draw to your own conclusions, but the point, Mr. Chair, is that this is a member who supports a gun registry, a long gun registry, that has completely failed--
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Chairman, I want to remind you of the rules.
That is irrelevant. You should be ashamed to allow…
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Monsieur Ménard, do you have a point of order that you want to direct to the chair?
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Chairman, I will not tolerate having motives imputed to me by a Minister of Justice who would like to see more firearms in circulation. It is shameful that this country has a justice minister who wants more firearms circulating.
Go to Dawson College. Would you be ready to come to the Dawson College with me?
Would you like to come to Dawson College with me? Whenever you want to come, I will be available.
But I will not tolerate having motives imputed to me by a Minister who is prepared to support...
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
That's no point of order. It's a point of debate.
We'll go to Mr. Comartin.
Mr. Comartin.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
I'm not quite used to this style of committee hearing. I want to point out that within the last minute or two, the minister has for his own reasons—we have free speech around here—resorted to ad hominem and personal references to the member, when around this table we're supposed to be discussing public policy with specific reference to this bill.
I think it would really help if we could keep the conversations focused. I'd ask the chair to help us do that, because we're not going to get too far if this kind of partisan back and forth stuff continues.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here, along with your officials.
Let me pursue this with a little less passion than Mr. Ménard and from a different angle.
In the latter part of the bill, in particular, from midway onward, you're dealing with specific crimes and how sentencing for those crimes will be done in a progressive way. Do you have any analysis?
As an example, I'm going to use the attempted murder section, where you again have progressive convictions and progressive sentences. I have to ask you this, and I ask this having had some experience. How many cases are there in Canada in any given year where a person will have committed or attempted to murder on the third occasion in a ten-year time span?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. The prior conviction doesn't have to be for attempted murder. It could be a robbery, for example.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Even taking those, what about the number of offences that are—let me use the terminology because we seem to be using this a lot—of a serious violent nature?
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
How many of those involve the use of a firearm? Do you know?
I have to say to you, Mr. Minister, that my own perception is that there are very few. I have to wonder about the amount of effort and the amount of fear we've created in this country over the numbers. My own assessment is that there are very few who are going to get caught by this legislation.
Do we have that, and if so, can you share it with the committee?
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
The material was provided to you in annex two. It was provided to the clerk, so it's there.
But on the point you're making, if what you're saying is correct and this is only a rare kind of situation where it happens, then the response certainly isn't disproportionate. It is targeted at some very serious criminals who are using firearms on second and third occasions.
I can point you to annex two, the statistics on firearm-related Criminal Code sections, 1998 to 2004. It was a study prepared on May 23, 2006, by the research and statistics division of the Department of Justice Canada. The source is the adult criminal court survey conducted by the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Is there a corresponding analysis being done on how many people are going to be incarcerated, for how many additional years, and how much that is going to cost?
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
Just one minute. I'll get that material here.
What we are doing is sending a serious message to those who would be inclined to get involved in serious gun crime. If they take the message to heart, there will be no need to significantly increase jail space; however, if more people need to be accommodated in federal penitentiaries as a result of tougher sentences being imposed for serious firearms offences, funds have been set aside in the budget to respond to that need.
It is estimated that the federal offender population may increase by approximately 270 offenders per year by the fifth year after implementation, at a cost of approximately $246 million over five years--that's operational and capital--and $40 million ongoing. These sums for Correctional Service Canada were included in the budget. While it's not expected that the provincial offender population will increase substantially as a result of the proposed penalties, given the length proposed it is expected that there will likely be some prosecutorial and administration of justice costs associated with these measures.
At the recent meeting of federal-provincial-territorial ministers responsible for justice, cumulative cost impacts of the new criminal justice system reforms were discussed, and officials will continue to look at ways of streamlining the criminal justice system. But I must say that, generally speaking, the proposals met with a great deal of support from provincial ministers.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
The provincial ministers had prepared a report at that last meeting, which, up to this point, you've refused to release--or at least your department has. Did that report include an analysis of the extra costs the provinces were going to have to bear with regard to legal aid and additional prosecutors, additional judges, additional court time? Is there any analysis of that?
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
Well, I would suggest there would be no increase in that respect, because if somebody is going to be going to a mandatory minimum prison sentence of four years, in any event, let's say as a result of the old law, that wouldn't change if the mandatory minimum is now five years. So I don't see the proposition of four-year mandatory minimum prison sentences for gun crimes--which your party supported during the election--increasing the legal aid budget in any way. In those kinds of offences, whether it was a mandatory four years, five years, seven years, or ten years, all of those individuals would be eligible for legal aid. And I'd point out that the former Minister of Justice, Irwin Cotler, was supportive of mandatory minimum prison sentences during the election as well.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
You don't see that the progressive charges on the second and third offence are going to produce additional trial time?
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Do you think people are going to be more prepared to plead guilty, or at least as willing as they are now?
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
As willing as before. I don't think we will see any significant difference in that respect.