Justice Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Ian McCowan]

In the first five years, it's $246 million. Thereafter, starting in year six, it's $40 million, because at that point you've built your space.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So I should be amortizing my $246 million. But I think I have it right for the first five years. And it's not even 270 in the first year. Will it be an accumulating 270 additional persons each year?

[Ian McCowan]

The estimate starts at 135 in year four, it goes to 270, and then it levels out in year five.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So for 600 or 700 people, the per year cost is actually a little less than $1 million a person. If you just look at the first five years of operation of this, if we're spending $246 million a year, and if we're placing into the prison less than 270 persons per year, my math makes it about a million bucks a year per person.

[Ian McCowan]

It all depends on how you look at the capital costs.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I agree. I have not amortized them over the life of the capital expenditure. But in terms of cost to the taxpayer where we don't amortize—we simply take the costs given in a particular year—it is about a million bucks a year per offender.

[Ian McCowan]

There are different ways you can look at analyzing the capital costs. What I would say to you is that what Mr. Toews said to you yesterday is exactly in line with our cost projections. In the first four to five years, the combined capital and operating is $246 million; thereafter, it's $40 million year. That's what it costs.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

And that's $246 million per year for the five years, or is it a total?

[Ian McCowan]

The total for the first five-year period is $246 million, capital and ongoing. Thereafter, from year five on, it's $40 million a year, ongoing.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'll probably try to do some more number crunching. Your numbers are helpful in trying to assess this.

Do you have anything written that you might be in a position to leave for members? Most of us now will be working from the transcript and from our own chicken-scratch notes.

[Ian McCowan]

I don't, but it's very easy for us to put something together, Mr. Chairman. If it's helpful, I can put together a summary document that basically breaks down all the numbers, as we've discussed them today.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

The financial picture is a component of this. Even though it's probably not the most important one, it's certainly one.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm surprised that we're having a lot of discussion about the cost here today, on the one hand. I think you're going to actually provide that in terms of the capital cost and ongoing operational cost.

One of the questions that hasn't been asked yet—I don't think it has been—is the actual cost of not having these individuals in prison. My good friends from across the way seem to be absolutely concerned only about the financial cost to the taxpayer. They don't seem to be all that concerned about the cost of life, the cost of the impacts that criminals have on individuals, families, and communities if in fact we don't move forward in this direction. I wondered if, from a broader perspective, that was actually looked at in terms of a direction to take.

[Ian McCowan]

I cannot answer for the justice department from a policy perspective in terms of what I'm sure is a very wide range of considerations, everything from public safety to costs, that have gone into their deliberations. All I can answer is the impact in terms of Correctional's base. I take your point. There are many interesting debates to be had by this committee and in Parliament as this legislation goes forward.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One of the other questions I had was with respect to the fact that this year's budget actually had a significant amount of money dedicated to expanding and potentially investing millions of dollars into new jails. I wonder if you would comment on how that factored into your work with respect to this bill.

[Ian McCowan]

It doctors in very nicely, as I think Minister Toews indicated yesterday. The numbers he put before the committee yesterday were in fact part of the proposal that went forward in the budget package.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

In essence, the budget that was passed in May, or the budget that was introduced in May, certainly covers off the potential costs that we may face with respect to this bill.

[Ian McCowan]

There is always, I guess, uncertainty as to what happens down the road, but Minister Toews indicated yesterday the total costs that are associated with this. Yes, my understanding is that they are being looked at in terms of projections and planning for the budgetary cycles to come.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One other question deals a little more in the general sense. Obviously, we have maintenance; we have upkeep. I'm sure there are always capital dollars being spent on our jail systems throughout the country. In general, what is the increase on a yearly basis that gets factored into ensuring that our facilities are as up-to-date as we absolutely need them to be?

[Ian McCowan]

There is a specific percentage that gets reinvested in infrastructure, but I don't have it in front of me right now.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Can you speak to it generally?

[Ian McCowan]

Absolutely, we have a massive operational network right across the country. We have a number of institutions that are quite old. You can imagine there's a fair bit of infrastructure and rust-out considerations that are first and foremost in terms of ensuring that our institutions are capable of fulfilling the important public safety role they have. Yes, it's something that we watch very closely and try to keep it at appropriate levels where possible.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

This whole discussion around cost and trying to divide inmates by daily cost, regardless of legislation introduced...these are increasing costs that you incur on a yearly basis.

[Ian McCowan]

As long as there's a Criminal Code, we are going to have a significant number of individuals under federal sentences, and we need to have a network of people and facilities in place that can meet the demands that it entails.