Justice Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Ian McCowan]

If I may, much of it depends on the level of security that we're talking about here. Basically, we have some flex at the minimum security level, much less as you get higher in the security level. So depending on what legislative change meant in terms of specific security levels, you could be looking at different scenarios. But the short answer is that we don't have that space available right now.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So if there were 5,000 more prisoners spread out on the average between minimum and maximum and all that, you would need, over and above the $475 million, significant capital costs.

[Ian McCowan]

I think I'd need to consult our costing experts back at headquarters, simply to get some accurate projections. I'm not familiar with the numbers you've referenced, to be perfectly frank.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That's okay. I don't need that for now.

If you had 12,992 incarcerated--that would be almost approaching half again the number of prisoners--is there more cost? We had an aboriginal group make a submission from the far high Arctic suggesting that it was more problematic for them because there are no jails close to their area. They would be so far from their families that it would cause many social and psychological problems.

I'd like to ask if you consider the differences of those northerners in the high Arctic, if those people are in a different situation. Do you see them as being in a different situation when it comes to incarceration?

[Ross Toller]

Yes. Currently, if you look at Nunavut, there is no federal capacity to contain offenders there. As you know, there is an institution on Baffin Island, which is territorially governed. So when inmates receive a federal sentence from Nunavut, they are transported into our federal system.

What we have done is create an institution specifically to accommodate Nunavut types of offenders, which is located Fenbrook, just north of Toronto. So we have adapted to some level of Nunavut programming and engaged with some Nunavut communities to try to bring Nunavut culture and spirituality there. We have special food feasts with those types of inmates and so on.

If we were to look at the possibility of building a federal institution in that area, as Mr. McCallum pointed out, it would be the best of the operation planners.

But I can certainly tell you that costs in the northern Arctic are generally much higher for what you would do with personnel concerning the northern allowance. There's a capacity to attract people to work in that particular type of environment—transportation costs and things along that line.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Are the vast majority of prisoners allowed visitors?

[Ross Toller]

Yes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I assume it would be almost impossible for a number of people from the high Arctic to afford to come to Fenbrook.

[Ross Toller]

It is difficult for some. We have had some, but it is difficult.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Could you tell me what in reality is the difference in treatment that a person would get towards rehabilitation in jail versus being on a community discretionary sentence or on probation?

One of the witnesses suggested that on average a person was on probation or community sentence for 700 days, and in jail it was around 47 or 50 days. They would have a lot more time to work with a person on rehabilitation, but I'm curious as to the types of services, if you're aware of them, that a prisoner gets to reintegrate and rehabilitate when they're incarcerated, and then when they're not incarcerated, but still under your auspices.

[Ross Toller]

Yes. Maybe I could just back up a step. When a person receives a federal sentence and comes into the federal system, there's always an individual assessment made of their needs. What is it that they need to have in programming to assess their level of rehabilitation? A person with serious substance abuse would identify in those areas.

What we do within the Correctional Service is differentiate between someone who, for example, might be a hardcore heroin user and require a more intensive type of program and someone who might just be a casual user and have some sort of level of ability.

It is similar with violence and all those particular skills that we would look at—employment, education, and so on. So everything is based on an individual's needs.

As you know, we look after inmates serving two years and more. We could have a person for a life sentence, for ten years, or for two years. Within the realm of what a person has, we look for the individual needs, and we prioritize based on potential sentence length.

For those who go into the community, there's a natural extrapolation of programs delivered on the inside that would go to the outside. Some are sustaining ability. If a person has been incarcerated and has been involved in programming for substance abuse, the community would have programs available out there for sustaining the gains made within the realm of the program the person took. It is similar with violence.

So there is a movement in which the programs that are initiated for the needs of the maximum, the medium, or the minimum move into the community. In the community, we have program delivery officers, parole officers, who provide both a counselling and a supervisory approach to the inmate's behaviour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

First, I would like to thank you for joining us.

Your statement today to the committee was very interesting. Having practised criminal law for 20 years, I know that several of my clients are housed in CSC facilities. Well, a least a few of them are. I'm really fascinated by the day-to-day side of your operations.

I want to have a good grasp of the issue. There are a few things that I didn't quite get, and I assure you that it is not the fault of our interpretation services.

Inmates in a maximum security facility are serving sentences of 10 years or more. How does it work? Can you explain to me which penitentiaries are minimum, medium and maximum security facilities? For example, La Macaza is a minimum security penitentiary. Is Cowansville a medium security penitentiary? No, it's not. I would simply like some concrete examples, in terms of the length of sentences. Port-Cartier is a maximum security penitentiary. What about the others? How does it work?

[Ian McCowan]

Our system is set up in our legislation and regulations to manage inmates. One of the aspects of that is that inmates are given a security classification--minimum, medium, or maximum--based on a number of factors. You can imagine the things that have been enshrined in that, for instance, the risk of escape, the potential harm that would come from an escape, and also our ability to manage them in the institution. Depending on those considerations, an inmate can be slotted in at the minimum, medium, or maximum level. We have institutional space available at those three levels in a variety of parts of the country, and the appropriate level for an inmate will determine where they'll be.

Have I understood your question properly?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'll complete it. You got off to a good start.

When a person is convicted of an offence, he is sent to a federal reception centre where a determination is made whether to send him to a minimum, medium or maximum security penitentiary. Is that right? However, if that person is sentenced to a minimum prison term of 25 years for murder, will he be sent automatically to a maximum security institution? Yes or no?

[Ross Toller]

Perhaps I could answer that once you have finished with this part of your question.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I would rather you give me an answer right away, because my next questions will depend on your response.

[Ross Toller]

Fine then.

Not automatically.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Okay.

I was surprised by the figures you quoted. Why is it cheaper to house someone in a medium security institution than in a minimum security institution? The difference is almost $12,000 per year, per individual. Why is there such a difference?

[Ian McCowan]

The explanation is that we have some surplus space for minimum. In terms of economies of scale, that tips the balance to make it a more expensive venture.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I see.

When an inmate convicted of a federal offence -- and we agree that applies to sentences of two or more years -- is released on parole, is he accounted for in your books until his sentence runs out, including his time on parole?

[Ian McCowan]

As long as they are under our control, yes, there are costs associated with them. If they are sentenced to supervision in the community, they are still under our control.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand.

So, if someone is sentenced to five years in prison, plus three years' probation, you stop supervising that person after the warrant expiry date. You don't continue your supervision during the probationary phase.

[Ian McCowan]

I'm not sure that I totally understand what you mean by probation. If, during the course of the sentence, right up to warrant expiry, an individual is out under parole, or under a statutory release under conditions, we have parole officers who will be working with them and monitoring their conditions. There are, however, a number of other things that can happen in the criminal justice system after the warrant expiry date.

For example, the Crown could apply for a section 810 under the Criminal Code to get conditions imposed on a recently released inmate. We would not play any role in the enforcement or the supervision of those conditions. However, we would play a role in terms of long-term supervision orders. Sometimes an individual gets a so-called LTSO, which extends past the end of WED, and we would play a role in LTSOs.

Ross, did you want to expand on the LTSO piece?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

May I continue? I want to understand.

Are the offenders to be monitored pursuant to the Criminal Code included in the 21,277 inmates that you mentioned? Because there are offenders who will remain incarcerated for an indeterminate period of time. Did you include them in the figures that you presented to us today?