Justice Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Ian McCowan]

If you're asking in relation to the 270 whether we have done a breakdown as to how many we project might be aboriginal offenders, we haven't. The 270 has been done based on security level, and that is our best estimate of who will be coming through the door as a result of a legislated change.

Have I understood your question correctly?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Indeed, you have.

Are there currently any repair, improvement, construction, renovation or remodelling projects under way in your penitentiaries, despite Bill C-10?

[Ross Toller]

No. There's nothing that's under way right now in terms of preparation for this particular bill. There is our ongoing, normal construction that we would do in terms of maintenance and factors on that one, but our projections, when we talk about capital cost and the operational costs, would include that.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

So then, if this bill were adopted, how many of your institutions would undergo some construction, improvement or repair work, involving at least 270 inmates per year?

[Ian McCowan]

We wouldn't have an impact in terms of the minimum level of security, because we have some surplus space. We would probably require a medium institution to cover off the additional numbers I just described. Similarly, we would require some additional maximum space, probably not a whole institution, to cover off the numbers I referenced.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

We can appreciate that making improvements and repairs to, or expanding a medium or maximum security facility costs considerably more than it would to do the same work in a minimum security penitentiary.

[Ian McCowan]

There's no question that the maximum security costs are higher than the other two. As we discussed earlier, there is the unusual situation right now that the minimum costs are actually higher than the medium, only for the reason that we have additional surplus capacity in the minimum.

What I would say is that the costing factor really kicks in, in relation to the maximum security space. If you look, for example, at the comparison of the cost from medium to maximum, you're looking at a jump, in 2004-05 figures, of roughly $75,000 to $113,000. That's where you see the big jump.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

We still have one minute.

Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I want to confirm something one more time. It's very relevant to this bill by the way, just in case Mr. Lee gets excited.

The gang activity that has significantly increased in the penitentiaries over the last ten years has cost Corrections Canada additional funds, by a great deal. Am I correct?

[Ian McCowan]

In order to respond appropriately to the challenge posed by increasing gang and organized crime activity in our institutions, yes, there are costs associated with effectively managing our response to that. Absolutely.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

When this bill is passed, and I think it will--I hope we have enough support for it--more than likely there will be an additional number of gang members entering the system. Have you built that into your costs?

[Ian McCowan]

We have not done a specific projection of what percentage of the 270 individuals would be associated with gangs. I would say that our costing projections are in line with what we see as being the appropriate management response to the situation we're facing. The organized crime gang element is clearly part of what we need to respond to.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Okay, thank you.

This is my last question. Is the gang activity that exists in the penitentiaries today something that grew from within, or is that something that grew because of the number of incarcerations of gang members? Could you tell me that? That might be difficult.

[Ross Toller]

In terms of gang affiliation, I think the numbers have increased significantly: from close to 12% to close to 17% over the last five to seven years. That's those who were affiliated before they were incarcerated.

We do have some factors associated with aboriginal gangs, where people come inside an institution and look to join an aboriginal gang. There is some of that. I couldn't give you an absolute percentage of exactly what that number would be.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I understand there's recruiting within the penitentiaries for gang members. And it's not necessarily related to their race; I mean, white people belong to Asian gangs.

It's getting out of control, and I'm really quite concerned about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Okay, Mr. Thompson.

One quick question, Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

We've been looking at the potential impact of this particular bill. Was there an increase, generally, in the inmate population? Is there an expected increase over time, because of population increase or decrease or other factors? Just with reference to that, did the ministry actually have plans to build new facilities or increase the capacity of the department on a specific basis or perhaps on a contingency basis?

[Ross Toller]

There is a general, normal, traditional trend somewhere that hovers around 2.2% normal growth in incarcerated populations. However, everything must be cross-referenced against any new legislation, any functioning going on in the community, a responsive increase to police officers--it's a very complex formula--and then per capita population totals in the country.

If your question is, are we looking at building new facilities...every year we look at our capital accommodation plan. Sometimes we have to make some adjustments, looking to convert a medium security level to a minimum security level based on what's coming in and what we have within our stock. We do that on a yearly basis. Of course, as you know, we plan these things, and what you plan today...sometimes circumstances change over time.

Yes, we looked at some increased cell capacity totally separate from here as a result of some of the other activities going on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

That brings our meeting to a conclusion. I thank Mr. McCowan and Mr. Toller for their appearance here. The information was valuable.

I would ask that my colleagues stay for the rest of the business of the committee. I will suspend for one minute until that happens.

[Proceedings continue in camera]