Justice Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

My questions start off with Correctional Service Canada. Do you analyze the costs of the party platforms, when it comes to what their proposals could potentially cost? On the proposals that the Conservative Party, for example, put forward in the last election, did your department at the time analyze what the potential cost would be?

[Ian McCowan]

I wasn't in this job at the time, so I'm not actually sure. There is certainly some analysis that happens, but frankly, until you see a draft piece of legislation, it's very difficult to project precisely what a given legislative change is going to cost. Again, you have to get into what levels of security and so on are involved as a result.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I'm sure you can get a good idea. I'm going to mention some platforms that were put forward, and maybe you can give us an idea of the type of costs that would be associated with those.

The 2006 NDP platform promised:

Firm punishment and deterrence through legislation, regulation and much stronger targeted sentencing provisions for crimes involving guns—

—gun violence has reached crisis proportions--

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Chairman, could I just make a point of order here? We're studying a bill here, Mr. Chairman, and for reasons totally not explained, Mr. Brown now wishes to invite our witnesses to cost out a platform position from a previous election, made by one of our recognized parties in the House.

I don't see this as being relevant at all to the costs involved in Bill C-10. I think it's not only irrelevant, but it's unfair to ask our officials to cost out something that a political party might have recommended a day ago or a hundred years ago. I just do not see the relevance.

That's my point: relevance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Lee, if the officials are able to hypothetically make comment on some other presentation, that's fine. I don't really see that as a point of order.

Mr. Brown, continue.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

Speaking of relevancy, it's difficult to see that coming from the member who raised the point of order, but I will continue.

The NDP platform says:

—gun violence has reached crisis proportions. Firm, balanced and urgent action is needed without delay. ...illegal guns – many of them imported from the U.S. or stolen from homes – must be taken off the street. Hand guns have no place in our cities.

The proposals put forward were as follows:

• Increase the mandatory minimum penalty for possession, sale and importation of illegal arms such as hand guns, assault rifles and automatic weapons. Place each of these minimum penalties at four years, up from current one-year penalty.

• Add mandatory minimum sentences to other weapons offences. Place a four-year minimum sentence on all weapon offences, such as “possession of a concealed weapon”.

• Amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act so youth offenders 16 or older who commit a crime using a gun will be tried as adults—

• Support legislative, regulatory and sentencing initiatives to embody the principle that handguns have no place in cities, except in the hands of law enforcement officials.

When we're looking at different ideas and when we're talking about Conservative proposals, it is important to understand what different proposals may cost. If we were to look away from the current proposals, it is important to see that contrast.

What type of cost do you think would be associated with the NDP promise to Canadians in the last election? Would there be increased costs with what they promised?

[Ian McCowan]

To the extent that we're talking about additional space, clearly there would be costs. I'm not in a perfect position to give you any kind of a precise estimate of what the specific end results would be in terms of institutional space.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

But in terms of a rough estimate, would it be similar to the cost associated with the Conservative proposals?

[Ian McCowan]

I've already been declared confusing earlier on, so I certainly don't want to go further.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Even if it is just a rough estimate—

[Ian McCowan]

I'm not really in a position to answer, because, frankly, we're talking about a hypothetical. We'd have to have a hard look at the underlying assumptions. Until we did that, in good conscience, I don't think I could put a number or a suggestion on the table, Mr. Chair.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Okay.

Since I still have time, I'm just going to read an excerpt from the Liberal platform. I want to see if you can make any comment on this and if it would associate a cost increase. It is something as simple as this.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Chair, on another point of order, this is absolutely the theatre of the absurd for this member to ask a question of our witnesses who are from the department. The witnesses have already indicated that they're not in a position to make any kind of evaluation or statistical assumption, but the member is persisting.

This is simply theatre and not relevant to the study of the bill. The member forgets that we have a government bill on the table, not a political platform.

I would just ask the chair again to ask members to direct their attention to the bill and the facts surrounding the bill.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I'm going to get to it.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

The member is not getting to it. The member is persisting in reviewing political platforms. We finished the last election a few months ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Your time is about up here, Mr. Brown. Put your question, and make it hypothetical, because that is what you're asking. It's a hypothetical question, and the witnesses could not answer the last hypothetical question.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That was an interesting point of order from Shakespeare.

But if I could just ask a question, in the last Liberal platform they said that crime rose by 12% in 2004, and, “Since 2001, handguns have accounted for roughly two-thirds of firearms-related homicides, double the proportion prior to 1990”. Given that recognition by the Liberal Party, do you agree that the current proposals by the Conservatives head in that same direction?

[Ian McCowan]

Mr. Chairman, we're effectively commenting on a policy matter pertaining to the Criminal Code. Really, all we can help you with today is the cost implications in terms of what it means, in terms of institutional space. I appreciate that you guys have some very interesting policy issues and debates ahead of you, but I don't think we're really in a position to answer the question.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Brown, your time is up.

Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

I want to get back to the costing issue again, with a view to trying to clarify it. The guesstimate on the annual operating cost of housing the additional 270 persons in year five would be about $40 million. Is that correct?

[Ian McCowan]

The ongoing operating expenses from year five onward forever, dealing with those additional 270 persons, is about $40 million per year.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

It's about $40 million. And does that include the capital costs?

[Ian McCowan]

No. The $246 million includes operating capital just for the first five years.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So to house about an additional 270 persons per year, we're now going to be spending, if the numbers are rough—and I realize these are guesstimates and estimates—and if I have them right, $246 million per year.