Justice Committee on Nov. 20th, 2006

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

But if someone was injured with both of those, at the end of the day, do you think the sentence should be different?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

I think the sentence should reflect the specifics of the crime and the particular situation.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I guess that would be taken away if you had a mandatory minimum sanction, because that's exactly what the judge isn't allowed to do. Is that correct?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

I would say so.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you. C'est tout.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Ms. Barnes.

Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I admit I am a bit surprised, if not disappointed, with the RCMP submission. I expected you to be more generous in your comments. You appear to have stayed at a level of generosity that is not very compatible with the committee’s expectations in including your name on the list of witnesses. You restricted yourself to trivial remarks, truisms and platitudes. There is nothing there that can really help us.

I would have liked you to talk about the current gun trafficking situation in Canada, street gangs, groups most at risk. Is there someone at the RCMP who has analysed the potential consequences of Bill C-10? Granted, you are in favour of deterrence, but I must say that no one will become deputy minister with a statement like that.

Your style is easy to understand, but be a little more specific in your comments. Can you give us figures on gun trafficking and information on gangsterism and the street gang phenomenon? Would the bill have a negative impact on at-risk groups?

Live up to your potential a little more. You have given too dry and institutional a viewpoint.

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

I can give you some numbers. For example, we estimate that there are approximately 7,000 gang members in Canada, and they're organized around 350 or so gangs. Most of the gangs are in Ontario, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Alberta—

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Seven thousand or 700 street gangs?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

Seven thousand members of various gangs, and approximately 400 gangs.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

How are those gangs involved in gun trafficking? What offences are committed in Canada? It is said that more offences are committed with knives than guns. This is a very bad bill and I hope the House of Commons is going to totally defeat it.

In the interest of thoroughness, I would like us to be given more information to validate that data. In Canada, are there more offences committed with guns than knives?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

Last year, for example, there were about 650 homicides, 255 of which were committed by firearms. We have approximately 2,000 to 3,000 firearms either stolen or reported missing annually. Many of the gangs, particularly gangs in the northwest region—Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Manitoba—are using sawed-off shotguns and .22s, most of which are being obtained through local crime, break-and-enters, and thefts. They're stealing these weapons from residents and altering them to commit the crimes. Many of the gangs are becoming increasingly violent.

Gangs have been with us for approximately ten years that we've been measuring, but in some cases, in some jurisdictions, they've been around for as long as thirty years. The trouble with measuring gangs and statistics around gangs is that there's no solid and set definition of what a gang is. We do have some definitions—I can give you one in a few moments, if you wish—but we have a variety of police departments in Canada, all of which are using different criteria for measuring what is a gang activity and what isn't a gang activity. If a member of one gang shoots someone from another gang but it's because they were both going out with the same girl, is that a gang activity or is that something else? So there's a lot of difficulty measuring those kinds of things when we're talking about gangs.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Bills C-95, C-24 and C-18 have been passed on gangsterism and organized crime. As a law enforcement agency, you are surely very happy there is a public gun registry and, unless they are inconsistent, everyone who believes in deterrence believes in the soundness of the public registry for the registration of firearms.

I’m not asking you for an opinion on the gun registry but on gun trafficking itself.

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

I can't tell you a tremendous amount. I told you that many of the guns that gangs are using are coming from thefts and break-and-enters. We do know there is gun smuggling as well. To that end, the RCMP has created border integrity teams to research and investigate those kinds of offences. It's very difficult, again, to measure specifically what kind of trafficking is going on across the border. That will take some time as we build our case experience and history. We'll then be better able to track it, but it's presently quite difficult.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do I have time to ask one last question to the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You do, Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you very much.

I agree completely with your logic and am one of your fans. It is always a pleasure to hear you on each bill, and the thoroughness of your submission is a credit to your organization.

How will the bill affect women most? I am giving you the opportunity to make an editorial comment.

[Kim Pate]

Excuse me, I have to speak English.

In terms of the constructive possession components of this bill, I'm just in the midst of reviewing some material about Janice Gamble's case, which may be a case some of you are familiar with. She's a woman who was convicted of constructive murder, until it was overturned. Similarly, she would be convicted under this bill because there was a weapon in the vehicle when an armed robbery was being committed...whether or not she was involved. If you know about such a weapon, you can be deemed to be in possession if you're also in possession of the vehicle or the house.

Just last week I was out west and I met with a woman who is in jail because of a situation in which a gun was being hidden in her home. The man who was hiding the gun was also very abusive. She knew the gun was there and she took responsibility—she's in jail now—for not having reported it. But the risk becomes higher for women in those sorts of situations because to report and risk personal violence or to not report and risk jail is increasingly what would be their lot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for coming.

I want to echo Mr. Ménard's comments, Ms. Pate. The paper you presented was well researched and had some excellent points in it.

The difficulty we have when we do the analysis of this is that the material we tend to get from police forces—and I understand the problems you have in gathering it—oftentimes tends to be anecdotal or not of a rigour that would satisfy social science research. In that regard, in terms of the figures that you gave us on the members of the gangs—the 7,000 figure and 400 gangs—you've said there is no actual definition of what a gang is that's universally applied across the country. With the definition of organized crime and the way we've done the analysis of organized crime in the Criminal Code, would all of the gangs you referred to be caught by the organized crime sections of the code?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

Yes, they would.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Would there be additional organizations of a criminal nature that would not be caught by the organized crime definitions and sections?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

A criminal organization, by definition, would allow it to fit into the definition of organized crime.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Would that be true with all the police forces across the country? Would they take the same approach?

[C/Supt Michael Woods]

I think they would, yes.