Justice Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2006

[Chief William Blair]

By the end of this month, they will all be in place, but we've been working hard at getting that done all through this year.

Additionally, I was provided with some resources through one-time grant funding from the Province of Ontario. I'm hoping to discuss that at a future date, but, in fairness, we have not had that discussion. That was tremendously important to us as well. It enabled us to do a number of things in anti-gang violence initiatives and anti-violence initiatives, and in particular to assemble some rapid deployment teams.

I have three teams of eighteen officers that we can, through our intelligence and analysis, rapidly deploy in the neighbourhoods where violence is taking place or is likely to take place, and they're very visible. They're all uniformed. They do a lot of compliance work to make sure that those people who are violent and have been released into the community are in fact complying with the conditions of their release. In fact, one arrest in seven in the city of Toronto will be for non-compliance under these conditions. We have to work very hard to make sure that people are complying with those conditions.

I can also tell you that this year in the city of Toronto we will arrest more people than we have ever arrested in the history of the Toronto police. We will lay more charges. We will show-cause more violent offenders. We've increased our work in virtually every area, and we've put a lot more people out there to do the work.

Certain aspects of it are quite sustainable and others will always depend on the largesse of others to help us get it done. Quite frankly, enormous pressure is being brought to bear on those funding sources because a lot of other communities in Ontario are putting their hand up and saying, “We're having the same problem and we need the same help”, and I agree with them. I think they do need the help. That's why I make the statement, “When my partners are stronger, I am stronger”. It's an important statement.

As well, we all need to rise together. And it's not just the police, by the way. There's an impact on crown attorneys, there's an impact on our court space, on court security, prison transportation, and the administration of the courts. There's an impact on our judges, and there's a significant impact as well on the legal aid system. So all aspects of the criminal justice system have to rise together to meet the challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Chief Blair, for being here with us.

That's the theme of what we want to do. It's to be a partner. We know you are doing a great job here in Toronto, but there is a role, obviously, for us as people who draft amendments to the Criminal Code and are caretakers of the Criminal Code. We also have to pull our weight.

I want to have you maybe expand a bit on a few comments that you made. First, you made the point about the continued violence of a number of individuals. When we look at the population of your city, Toronto, we're actually talking about a small number, percentage-wise, of individuals who are creating the problems, the headlines, and the escalation in violence. You also mentioned that there's no one answer, but with some of the work you're doing, the work we can do, and the work of other stakeholders in the community, together we can try to prevent what's going to happen.

Could you comment a bit on where we are dealing with a relatively small number of people? I know it's a lot for your police force because you're dealing with a number of individuals, but when we look at the millions of people who live in Toronto, we're actually dealing with a small percentage who are causing the problem.

How do you feel the escalating offences proposed in the bill—the five-year minimum on a first offence, seven on a second, and ten on a third—fit with targeting repeat offenders? You used an example that I think is pretty telling, in that in one community there had been ten murders one year, and when you finally were able to get those few individuals off the street, the next year there were no murders. That's what we are trying to do with this bill: get the people who are really causing the problem off the street.

Could you comment a bit on maybe the escalating nature of these offences?

[Chief William Blair]

First of all, Mr. Moore, I concur. I think it's important to maintain a perspective here. This is not youths out of control in our communities. The overwhelming majority of young people in our city are decent, law-abiding young people. They just want to live safely and get ahead.

The activities we're talking about are limited to a relatively small number—perhaps no more than a thousand violent gang members. Even though we've identified significantly more people involved in gangs, they're involved in other criminal activity that the law is adequate to deal with, with respect to drug dealing, theft, and other types of crimes. But the truly violent are a relatively small number. In Jamestown, the community I spoke of earlier, we kept about 45 people in custody this summer and the level of violent crime in that community plummeted by over 50%.

We had a similar experience, by the way, in Scarborough. There were a number of murders in 2003 and early 2004. In fact, the same spike that we experienced in 2005 occurred in that time period as well out in the southeast and northeast parts of Scarborough. Two gangs were responsible, the Galloway Boys and the Malvern Crew. We did very significant investigations targeting both individual groups. The group of the Galloway Boys was twelve individuals whom we apprehended and kept in custody. They've been through preliminary hearing, and I can't speak too publicly about the evidence against them, but the allegations are that they were involved in multiple murders and multiple shootings in that community.

When we took those twelve individuals off the street—this number is extraordinary and I have to share it with you—violent crime in Scarborough, which is a community of over half a million people, dropped 40%. It's not that those individuals were responsible, but I think others took note and were deterred from their behaviours by the real consequences that those twelve and others faced, because we followed that up with a similar investigation in Malvern.

Just taking them off the street isn't the whole job. I want to be very clear on that. We then went into those neighbourhoods in significant numbers, in uniform, to restore a sense of safety and to empower the people who live in those communities to take back their own communities and have the confidence and courage to come forward to provide real opportunities and good role models for the young people in those communities. It made a huge difference in those neighbourhoods.

I actually live in that neighbourhood and I know the difference. Confidence was restored and a sense of safety was restored because the most violent individuals—a handful, but the most violent handful you could possibly imagine—were incarcerated. Once they were out of the community, the world changed for everybody; there was a 40% reduction, and it lasted for several months. A 40% reduction in violent crime in that community was hugely significant to those of us who live there. It improved the quality of life for everyone, because a dozen individuals were no longer able to prey on that community.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Do I have a little more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You have enough for a very quick question, Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

That's an amazing stat, I have to say.

The other question I have is on what you mentioned about the deterrent effect when others are facing consequences. I've heard the argument made in committee, in other people's testimony, that there is no deterrent effect when you see another individual facing consequences. Is it your submission that there is a deterrent effect if people in the community see other individuals facing serious consequences for their serious offences?

[Chief William Blair]

I believe there is. A couple of things happen. When very serious violent criminals are arrested and taken out of the community and kept out of the community, I think young people who might be inclined to follow those role models might look for other role models in their communities, more positive role models--decent, honourable citizens--to follow.

Some individuals who may think that's the way to make your reputation in the community might be deterred, but there's also a very important thing that happens. A community's sense of self and self-confidence and pride is restored when these individuals are removed and when we can create an environment where good things can start to happen. Young people don't have to be ashamed of the high school they go to or be concerned that when they go for a job and tell a potential employer what neighbourhood they come from, they won't be hired because they're deemed to be at-risk youths. In fact, those youths aren't risky at all, but they may come from risky circumstances. When we can reduce the risk of their circumstances, their opportunities increase. That has a very positive effect on communities and neighbourhoods, and it's a responsibility that we have to our citizens to make those neighbourhoods safer places.

That's why I've committed so many uniformed resources. It's not just simply to effect arrests. I don't believe we should measure our success by the number of people we arrest or even how long we keep them in jail. I think the true measure of our success is the absence of crime and an improvement in the quality of life of all of our neighbourhoods.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Chief Blair, thank you for attending today.

Of course, Toronto isn't the only place in the country. There are lots of other cities and places with difficulties with crime. It is notable that the spike in firearm violence that occurred over the last year and a half appears to have conspicuously been reduced to the point where, the last time I checked earlier this month, the number of firearm homicides had dropped to 44% from last year. The woundings dropped 19% or 20% and the shootings were down 20%. So something right is happening under the existing law. Obviously, a big portion of it has to be attributed to the Toronto police.

I will add something to your remarks. I live in 42 Division, just north of where you live, I think. And 42 Division includes Malvern, but not the Galloway region.

The last time I spoke with Superintendent Ellis, he noted that, based on the serious crime index used by the force, 42 Division in north Scarborough had the lowest crime rate in all of the city of Toronto, including Rosedale. So that is a huge difference, which can only be attributed.... It wasn't the weather and it wasn't the diet; it was the police. So I want to give credit to the force and all of the creative ways they have found, using the existing law, to address spikes in crime or community crime.

You mentioned bail as being at least a visual problem. It's perhaps part of the denunciation envelope. In other words, when people see someone who has been charged with a crime come out a couple of days later, pending a trial, maybe they get scared; maybe it doesn't look right. This bill doesn't address bail, but it does address, with some certainty, criminals off the street.

Could you tell me what components of this bill appeal to you in terms of its ability to take people who can be identified as threats off the street?

[Chief William Blair]

Mr. Lee, let me say, first of all, thank you for your comments, because I believe we have provided an effective policing response. And as I said, I like to give credit to my partners in this. The community partners we've had have been courageous and hard-working and have done a great job as well.

The laws that we have used have not yet been tested in court. They haven't done their job. That part hasn't worked yet. We've worked our tails off in the past several months and none of this has come to trial. We've worked very hard using the existing laws to bring people before the courts, to keep people in custody, and when they get released, we're back on their door. We see them first thing in the morning and last thing at night to make sure they're complying with the conditions on which they were released.

As I've indicated, almost one arrest in seven that we make in the city is because they're not complying with those conditions. Fully 68% of the people we arrested for firearms offences last year were out on bail. So we keep working hard at that.

The part that you say...the effectiveness of these laws. We haven't seen that they're effective yet. Quite frankly, they haven't done anything because we haven't had a trial on any of these matters. We're still before the courts.

We're hoping that we can have an effective response from the criminal justice system at the back end, that sentencing will be effective. So we've worked very hard, and I think on our part of the job we've done our very best and we've had a positive effect. If we keep on arresting them and bringing them to court, and if there are not real consequences for those conducts, then they'll be back on our streets.

Keeping them in custody so far this summer has proven that when these individuals are incapacitated from their ability to be in the community, from carrying guns and shooting each other and shooting innocent people, when we have them in jail and they're incapacitated from that, our streets are safer. It remains to be seen, after we get to trial and they're convicted, whether the criminal justice system is prepared to keep them in custody and continue to keep our communities safe. If it's not, and if they come back out, we'll keep working hard to do our part.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

These people will be prosecuted under the existing laws and not under this new bill. But what I take from your remarks is that the part of this bill you like is its potential ability to incapacitate the serious repeat firearm offender and keep the person off the street, post-conviction.

[Chief William Blair]

Mr. Lee, I believe a rational person would be deterred by two things: first of all, the likelihood of being caught; and when caught, suffering with real consequences for their actions. I think both of those things would deter a rational person.

I haven't seen sufficient evidence, and I don't think there has been sufficient study, to say with absolute certainty that everyone will be deterred, but I can tell you that when they're in jail, and when they don't have a gun and they're not walking around our neighbourhoods, nobody is getting shot by that individual.

It has also been my experience that we didn't lock up every bad guy in Malvern, in Galloway, or in Jamestown, but a lot of the other people who might have been predisposed to take up a gun, when all of their colleagues and friends were in custody, I think made different choices. That's my belief, and I think our neighbourhoods were made safer as a result.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you, Chief. I really appreciate the successes you've had and the hard work you're doing.

I'm finding in my area out in Alberta, mostly in the rural area, that the RCMP are the main enforcers, but I do have a lot of conversations with the police officers of Calgary and other towns and cities. One thing that is happening in Alberta, of course, is that we're having a fairly good economic boom, and opportunities for jobs are quite high. The number of resignations from police forces is on the rise because they're taking these better-paying jobs.

When I talked to some of these people, their response was that it wasn't about the money. They said they liked what they were doing as a police officer, but when they dropped people off at the remand centre in the city, because the rural area didn't have a place to keep them, and then drove back to their hometown to do the work and these characters beat them back there, that got very discouraging.

When they stick their necks out, put their lives on the line, day after day, to apprehend and arrest these people, and they beat the officers back to their hometown because of bail or the “soft approach”, for lack of a better term, I think the sentencing factor is an extremely important thing in the minds of police officers who are out there putting their lives on the line. Is this not true?

[Chief William Blair]

Well, certainly there is some frustration expressed by our people, but I can also tell you, sir, in my experience in Toronto, people are working hard. They're doing dangerous work, but they're doing it well. I think there's a pride that comes with doing your job well, and my people feel that pride.

There is some frustration when we see these individuals back out on the street, and it's one of the reasons we work so hard to ensure that they are complying with the conditions they're released on and so often are bringing them back in before the courts because they're not complying with their conditions.

I had a situation I had to deal with last year where an individual was involved in a gunfight with the police, where he actually fired on the police, and four days later he was released into the custody of his mother. Within a week, we got him again with a gun. My people were looking at me and saying, “How often do we have to do this? This is dangerous. We want to go home to our families and we're being put at risk by the system.”

I think some of those concerns are corrected through the administration of justice, and that's fine, but at the end of the day, with all of this work, I think all communities, not just police officers, but the citizens of our city, certainly have expressed to me—and I've been in every community and every day go out in the city—that they don't want everybody in jail, but they want the dangerous, violent offenders in jail, the people who put everyone at risk, the people who engage in gunfights in which four-year-olds get shot or innocent children get shot down on the street. They want those individuals out of their community. They want to be protected from them, and until we can do that for them, I don't think we can expect people to be courageous enough to step forward and help us in our investigations as often as we would hope they would do it. We have to provide them with some assurance that the whole system will work for them and that our first responsibility is to protect our citizens.

We have to act sometimes. Individuals may have to suffer the consequences of the choices they make, so that, for the greater good, we can provide a safe community for everyone.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

A few years back, my colleague Mr. Hanger and I were in the city of Toronto. We did a ride-along for a couple of nights. At that time, there was a significant number of gang wars. It was pointed out to us by the officers we were with.

We also made a trip to the border and saw a number of trucks blow through the lines and boats going across the water. I'd ask, “What's on those boats?” They'd say, “If it's like this, it's probably cigarettes; and if it's like that, it's probably whiskey; and if it's like this, it could be guns.” There's not much policing in the sense of what's going on at the borders. How significant a problem is the smuggling of these items in the city of Toronto?

[Chief William Blair]

We have interesting discussions about the sources of guns, and we work hard at all sources. Our investigations in 2003 and 2004 indicated an even split, with half being smuggled across the border and half being stolen from legitimate gun owners here in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada.

We've worked very hard to raise public consciousness about the problem with insecure firearms in our communities. I think there has been an improvement. What I think we're seeing now, in our latest work this year, is that close to 80% of the firearms we're seizing have in fact been smuggled across the border. So that's shifting a little bit. I think it is reflective of some good work that has been done here to improve the quality of security of firearms, but it is a challenge.

You raised the issue of the border. I am a member of the Major Cities Chiefs Association, which is an organization of the large police services across North America. I have been at two national forums conducted by the United States, in Washington and in Boston, on the issue of gun violence. The whole issue of gun violence is being described by the chiefs of the large cities in the United States as a gathering storm. What is happening in the urban centres of virtually every jurisdiction in America is a significant increase in violence, in particular gun violence, which is attributed to a great extent to gangs.

We are not the United States. We have different laws and a different society. But the cultural influences that give rise to much of this gang activity impact on our youth as well, so I think there is a great forewarning there. It was indicated today that we saw a bit of spike and then the numbers came down, but a very strong trend is emerging across North America in terms of an increase in gun violence and an increase in gang activity in all communities. We're seeing a serious and worrying increase in youth violence in those cities.

So we have not experienced the same level of violence, but I think there are lessons to be learned there.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, you've heard me speak several times about the gang activities in prisons. I am wondering if it would be possible for the chief to provide us with the names of gangs. I would like to have that list for a comparison with the gang activities in penitentiaries.

This is kind of for my own personal use, but it might be interesting for other members as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Chief, is there some information that can be compiled in that regard?

[Chief William Blair]

We have compiled lists. We have 73 identified gangs in the city of Toronto.

I believe CISC, Criminal Intelligence Service Canada, provided you with information on street gangs operating in Canada. I believe the names of our gangs were listed on that material. If you don't have it, we'll provide it to you, sir.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I would like to get that soon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

We will attempt to look for it. If we are unable to find it, we will be in contact.

Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I lived in Toronto in the 1980s, my roommate was a member of the Toronto police force. We never got broken into, probably because he was a member of the police force--or because we had no possessions of any real merit, I don't know which. But this goes to my point about police officers, community members, business community leaders, as you mentioned, and teachers, etc., being the fabric that creates public safety, and I am very happy to hear you say this, if that is a model for all of Canada. I also want to congratulate you on your good work.

We have gone a little off topic with respect to a strict examination of Bill C-10, so with the chair's permission and the committee's willingness, I might ask you about what I think is really the rub of the issue here, and that's gun control, for handguns, long guns, big guns, little guns, I don't care which. It may unify us to hear you say that guns of any sort are very dangerous for a community, whether it be Toronto, Moncton, Riverview, Edmonton, Red Deer, or wherever.

I have two questions, very political.

One, do you see any merit in scrapping completely the long gun registry?

Two, perhaps in a blue sky statement, what, other than the provisions in the Criminal Code regarding restricted weapons and so on--the licensing and the regulatory scheme, frankly, that you alluded to in your remarks--would be the perfect gun control scheme that could be enacted by a federal government that would help you in your job and make communities safer?

[Chief William Blair]

Like my colleagues in the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, I believe there is value in the gun registry. It provides important information to the police that enables us to do our jobs a little more safely, and it enables us to keep our communities safer.

I spend a lot of time working with my American colleagues on gun control issues, and when I tell them that we have such a registry in this country, they are astounded and quite envious that information is available to law enforcement. But as I have acknowledged previously, the truth is that unfortunately gangsters in my town don't register their handguns. So the problem I'm having with my gangsters killing each other with their handguns is not addressed adequately by a registry. But the registry still has value. Just because it doesn't have value for that problem does not mean it doesn't have value to the police. That's my position on the registry.

This is a vast country, and there are many jurisdictions and circumstances where it's not a problem of public safety for individuals to own firearms. Certainly for the farmer in Saskatchewan or the bear hunter in northern Ontario, I have no concerns about responsible gun ownership, as long as those firearms are lawfully obtained, properly registered, and safely secured. That's not an issue for us. I believe that what will help us keep our community safe are laws that enable us when we apprehend individuals in the criminal possession of a firearm.

In Toronto my problem is overwhelmingly one of handguns, but criminal possession of any firearm or crimes committed with firearms are more dangerous than with other weapons. That's because of the radius of harm that those weapons can bring into a community. In a large urban centre, if somebody pulls out a gun on Yonge Street and blasts away, it is almost inevitable that innocent people will be caught in the crossfire.

We will do the work of apprehending those individuals and taking those guns off the street, but in my ideal scenario, there are real consequences for those actions. Individuals who might be predisposed to getting guns would be deterred from making that choice and endangering everyone else because they will know that they will get caught, and when caught there will be real consequences.

We've done everything we can in Toronto to deal with the first part of that. We've done everything we can to make sure they know they will get caught. We are starting to achieve some success in that regard, but in order for that to be effective, they also have to know that when they are caught there will be certain and serious consequences for their conduct. I don't believe right now that is the perception among our gangsters and people who would endanger others. I think it seriously undermines our efforts to maintain public confidence.

In order for a police service to do their job, we have to maintain two things in our relationship with the public. First is trust that we will do the right things for the right reasons. Second is confidence that we can competently address issues of public safety. Only if we do those things can we maintain a high degree of public confidence. Without them we can't do our jobs.

I believe those in the public trust us and know we're doing our very best, but I do not believe they are fully confident in the entire criminal justice system to deal effectively with these individuals. I think we need to be able to provide them with assurances that there will be real consequences, these guys will be caught, and our communities will be protected from individuals who would take up guns, blast away, and put so many people at risk.