Thank you very much.
I'm going to speak in French.
I was glad to hear from professor Rosenthal, who I did not know previously. Your testimony has brought two things to mind. The first is that the Supreme Court allowed mandatory minimum sentences across the board, except in the Smith decision. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms came into effect in 1982, the decision in Smith was handed down in 1987 at which point, in order for a sentence to be overturned under section 12 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, two criteria must be met. First, the sentence must violate the principle of human dignity, and second, it must be grossly disproportionate. When defining a grossly disproportionate sentence the following factors are taken into consideration: the effect of the sentence, the offender's character and the circumstances in which the crime was committed.
Court challenges are not really what scares me. I don't think the sentences will be overturned because in Morrissey, Gold, Latimer and many other decisions, the court has very much deferred to parliamentarians. The problem is that I do not believe mandatory minimum sentences are effective. The government has not managed to table a single study proving a link between deterrents and a repeat offence.
Let's think about this logically. In 1995, a bill was adopted. The legislation set out 10 mandatory minimum sentences for offences committed with a firearm. Since then, either offences committed with firearms have increased, or they have decreased. Which ever the case may be, this has something to do with the legislation enacted in 1995. The Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics told us yesterday that, generally speaking, the number of crimes committed with a firearm has not increased in Canada. Moreover, this assertion is back up by the statistics.
If you look at the statistics on violent crimes, it is clear that, both absolutely and relatively speaking, they have dropped in number, with the exception of two places in Canada, where the number of crimes with a firearm has increased: Toronto and Vancouver. Should this be of concern? Yes, it should, and that is why, earlier, I tried to find out from the chief of police and the solicitor general what they think can be done to address very specific situations. It would be fabulous if we could tell ourselves, as legislators, that a quick fix solution exists, namely an increase in mandatory minimum sentences. But that is not the solution. At any rate, it is not clear, on the basis of the scientific data, that that is the solution.
What we do need to look at, is how we intend to work, for example, in dealing with street gangs. Clearly, the whole street gang phenomenon is a matter for concern. It is also a matter of concern in Montreal. But why do young people join street gangs? It may have something to do with poverty, desperation, and also the fact that some young people are quite simply a lost cause. Nor are we naive.
I would like to hear what you have to say on this issue. Mr. Rosenthal,I would be very happy for you to react, but I think this is particularly an issue for John. Do you have any statistics which would suggest that mandatory minimum sentencing is a deterrent? Any answer must be based on somewhat empirical research; and must not be based on an impression or one's intuition. You can't pass legislation that way, otherwise we would be reinstating the death penalty. The death penalty is the best way to eradicate offenders. So, when you say mandatory minimum sentencing is the best way of controlling offenders, it is a spurious argument.