Evidence of meeting #38 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sentencing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ryan King  Policy Analyst, The Sentencing Project
Anthony Doob  Professor, Centre for Criminology, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Royland Moriah  Policy Research Lawyer, African Canadian Legal Clinic
Irving Kulik  Executive Director, Canadian Criminal Justice Association

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I call to order the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

We continue our debate on Bill C-10, an act to amend the Criminal Code, on minimum penalties for offences involving firearms.

Before I call upon the witnesses to present, I'm going to deal with two matters of business that are before the committee, two motions.

Committee members, I apologize. The two motions that are before you are actually notices of motion. They will be brought forward on Monday of next week.

We will go on to the business at hand. We have four presenters here today, as you will note on your agenda. They are Anthony Doob, who is a professor at the Centre for Criminology at the University of Toronto; from the African Canadian Legal Clinic, Royland Moriah and Charlene Theodore; from the Canadian Criminal Justice Association, Irving Kulik; and from The Sentencing Project, Ryan King, who is a policy analyst.

Are you from the U.S.?

3:40 p.m.

Ryan King Policy Analyst, The Sentencing Project

Yes, from Washington, D.C.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Welcome to Canada and Parliament Hill.

3:40 p.m.

Policy Analyst, The Sentencing Project

Ryan King

Thank you. I appreciate the invitation.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Great, and we're interested in hearing what you have to say.

I will go according to our agenda and begin with Professor Anthony Doob.

Mr. Doob, the floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Anthony Doob Professor, Centre for Criminology, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I'm a professor at the Centre for Criminology at the University of Toronto. My research on various topics in criminology has been published in a number of peer review journals during the last 35 years. Recently, a colleague at the University of Ottawa, Professor Cheryl Webster, and I wrote a detailed review of the research literature on deterrent impact of sentencing for Crime and Justice: A Review of the Research, which is one of the major publication series in this field. A summary of my CV has been given to the clerk.

I'd like to make three rather straightforward points. First, contrary to what various people have said in the House of Commons and elsewhere, the research evidence does not support the conclusion that sentencing enhancements such as those contained in Bill C-10 will reduce crime. The best research on this is quite consistent. Mandatory minimum sentences will not reduce crime.

Second, you should be very cautious about accepting some of the evidence that is sometimes cited as demonstrating that mandatory minimum sentences can reduce crime. Much of the evidence contains obvious artifacts that can be easily demonstrated.

Third, you do the Canadian people a serious disservice when you imply or state that serious crime can be controlled, even in part, by imposing increasingly harsh mandatory minimum sentences. This disservice is easy to describe by focusing on approaches we know are not going to work; you fail to consider approaches to crime that would make our community safer.

At least one previous witness urged you to consider comparisons with the United States. He concluded these comparisons demonstrated harsh sentences would reduce crime in Canada. Simply put, I found his analysis to be astonishingly inadequate. Though I don't think these are the best data available for either side of this debate, I would like to spend a couple of minutes giving you a more adequate description of some of the differences across these two countries.

This is a graph of total crime and violent crime, as recorded by the Canadian police over the last forty years. I've multiplied the violent rate by ten to be able to see the shape of the curve. It is the shape rather than the absolute value that's important. Reported crime obviously went up rather steadily until the early to mid-1990s, and then it started to drift slowly downwards.

Crime is reported differently in the United States, hence you cannot legitimately compare the absolute values from these two graphs. This is the United States. What you see is a remarkably similar trend to what you saw in Canada; increases up to the early 1990s and then decreases since then.

Turning to homicide, because homicide figures can be made comparable, I've plotted the actual homicide rates of the two countries on this slide. American homicide rates are typically about three times those of Canada, but if you look carefully, you can see the overall trends in Canada and the United States are similar. Homicide rates peaked in the mid-1970s and then drifted downwards, heading up a little bit in the late 1980s and then downwards in the 1990s.

To be able to compare these trends visually, I've put the two countries' homicide rates on the same scale by setting the 1961 rate for each country to one and then plotting the change from that rate. What you see, again, is similarity. Increases from the 1960s to the mid-1970s, then a gradual and uneven decline, most notably in the 1990s.

What does this have to do with punishment?

This is the picture of Canadian imprisonment levels for the past 45 years. For various reasons, largely because we found ways of punishing those offenders who committed less serious offences in the community rather than by sending them to prison, we have had a rather steady level of imprisonment over the last 45 years.

In contrast, this is what the American imprisonment rates look like. U.S. imprisonment rates were rather constant for 50 years, ending in the mid 1970s, and then increased dramatically. U.S. imprisonment rates went from being slightly higher than ours in the early 1970s to about seven times that of Canada now. In the last few years we have jail data, which for various reasons weren't available until then, but what you see is an imprisonment rate that is about seven times Canada's rate.

Most criminologists would agree that the levels of imprisonment do not predict the crime rate. In this case, we have two countries, the United States and Canada, with patterns of crime that are fairly similar. Yet the two countries have dramatically different patterns of imprisonment. Therefore, when you're told that high levels of imprisonment will make Canadians safe, you should ask yourself why the shape of our trends are so similar to those of a country that has had very different levels of imprisonment.

I do not consider these to be the best evidence on the subject. I raise it only because apparently you've been urged to follow the American model of attempting to deal with crime by increasing imprisonment levels.

The conclusion from the actual data, if you want to think this way, would be that we have accomplished similar crime trends without having to spend billions of dollars imprisoning people.

To understand whether increased penalties affect crime, I would suggest that you look at the overall weight of the evidence. The conclusion that Professor Webster and I came to—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

We have a point of order here.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

I have a point of order.

I am hearing the interpretation in French of what he is reading, but the documents I have in front of me are not in French. I'm surprised that none of the Bloc members has raised this. As members of Parliament, we have a right to receive the French translation of any documents that are presented. He is not even allowed to talk about his brief unless I have the French translation of it.

I'm sorry, but this is a privilege granted me as a member of Parliament. So, I would like to be given the French version of this brief. If that is not possible, he should stop giving his testimony. I absolutely want to understand everything that is being said. There are two official languages in Canada: French and English. We are not in a minority here. I am surprised that the Bloc Québécois has not raised this.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Yes, point taken, Mr. Petit. That was my error.

Mr. Lemay.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

There is a very simple reason why I didn't raise it. I like looking at the figures and I can follow what the witness is saying by referring to the figures. I didn't really pay attention to what is written above. I'm taking notes based on the figures given by the witness, which I find extremely interesting. When Ms. Diotte spoke to me, I said I had no objection to the brief being only in English. It's all numbers, and the interpretation has been very complete thus far.

I don't want to prevent this gentleman from testifying today, given that the document he sent us is in French. He is complementing that with statistics I feel able to read. I'm looking at the figures and making little annotations. I see no problem with this, although my colleague may be right. At the same time, I would not like to prevent this gentleman from testifying today. What he has to say is important.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Excuse me, Mr. Petit, I don't want to belabour this point here. We're going to get to the end of it very quickly.

Mr. Lee.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I'm assuming that Mr. Petit wasn't urging you to take any steps to impede furthering the presentation. If he did, I would address it.

He made a point, perhaps a good point, and I don't want to get too technical. I don't want to impair the evidence.

So if it's the intention of the chair to proceed with the presentations of witnesses, that's fine. If not, then I would speak to it further.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Mr. Petit, your point is very well taken. I do apologize for letting this go without consulting the whole committee.

I would ask one question of Mr. Doob.

Can you present some of your arguments in French?

3:45 p.m.

Professor, Centre for Criminology, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Anthony Doob

No. But the reality is that the document you have is simply the slides that you have before you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Yes, I understand; I realize that much of this speaks for itself.

Mr. Petit, what is your further comment?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Yes, I do have a comment to make and I want it to be on the record.

Mr. Lee, I'm sorry, this is not a procedural matter. My language is French and, as a member of Parliament, I have a right to receive the document in French. I am a member of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, and I have to fight for this on a daily basis. I am entitled to this. It simply isn't true to say this is a procedural matter.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Yes.

Mr. Doob.

3:50 p.m.

Professor, Centre for Criminology, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Anthony Doob

The reality is that from this point onwards, all of the figures are in my formal brief, which was given to you and I believe has been translated. So if anyone would like to look at these figures, the only difference of any substance is that I will be talking about figures 1 and 2 afterwards. I will be talking about figure 3 onwards first.

Understanding the problem that I've created, I suggest that you follow the translated one from figure 3, and then we will go back to figures 1 and 2, which are in the document that was given to you a couple of weeks ago.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Do you have the translated document before you, Mr. Petit?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

I have the document that the gentleman is in the process of reading.

We are currently studying Bill C-10, which is an extremely important bill. I represent people who speak French and I am from a province where people speak French; I would like that to be noted. It's absolutely ridiculous that I even have to make this comment to you today. It's not right, because I am entitled to the same work tools as members of Parliament from other parties. I am very unhappy about this. It is not a procedural matter, it's a matter of respecting my right to use my language. I absolutely do not accept this situation.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Yes, I understand. I will agree with you, Mr. Petit.

Mr. Laframboise.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would suggest that the witness continue to read his brief, for which we have a French translation, and simply ignore the tables, which are in English. What is important for us is that he continue his testimony and read the brief, of which there is a French version.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Petit, would that be acceptable to you? Making note that you're protesting what was done here, and I certainly don't disagree with you, may the witness continue his presentation?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Fine.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you very much, Mr. Petit. I appreciate it.

Mr. Doob, continue, please.