Minister, we don't need to get into a competition here. One of my constituents lost their nephew to gun crime before Christmas, so I've looked into the eyes of people who've lost their children to gun crime. We don't need to get into a competition about this.
But balance needs to be proven in the estimates. What I'm saying to you is there is a focus on incarceration here that needs to be balanced with a lot of other things. You're going to have to prove to me that throwing a lot of kids into double-bunk penitentiaries is actually going to reduce the rates.
Everybody wants the same result, sir. We all want to get crime down. But you're going to have to come to us with a better evidence-based approach to prove that increasing incarceration rates is going to get you where we want to go. That's my point.