Justice Committee on May 30th, 2006

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

The report that you received from the RCMP is just our statistics. We only provide statistics for ourselves.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Does that include, for example, the provincial operations in British Columbia, Alberta, and Saskatchewan?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

If it's the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, it would be included. If it's the Ontario Provincial Police, it would not be included.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Right.

Does it include Surrey, British Columbia, the municipal force there?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, and it includes the territories.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

As we design a template, then, to record, to try to find out how many times this legislation has been used, you have the RCMP covered totally across the country, but we would have to look at provinces for provincial jurisdictions involving provincial police and municipal police in each of the provinces. Is that correct?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct, and they're required to then submit their report to their competent authority, which is the minister responsible for policing in the province.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Do you have any connection with any other federal agencies that might make use of these powers?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

They would have to submit their report to their minister.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Their own report to their minister?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Has the RCMP ever been approached by other agencies with respect to the use of these designations or training of officials in the use of designations?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

When the designation was first implemented, we provided some other agencies with the template that we were planning on using in terms of how we collect the data to ensure that when this day comes we would be able to answer your questions in terms of what we've done over the last number of years. So we shared that template, or those templates, with them.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Do you have any advice to us on how we might locate all these different agencies? I don't think we know exactly how many agencies would or might take advantage of this particular provision--Parks Canada, Fisheries Canada, Immigration, Canada Border Services Agency, who knows?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

In terms of law enforcement, we'd suggest the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police may be the best avenue to follow. Otherwise, we may be able to help you with the federal agencies that we know are using it and we could undertake to get back to you with a list--unless you have it, Barry.

[Barry MacKillop]

To my knowledge, at this point, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has used it and Environment Canada is currently examining the possibility of following suit, but I personally haven't seen any annual reports from them. I'm not sure where the report is on that.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay.

I notice that the data from 2004 hasn't hit Parliament yet, hasn't hit the public. We're almost halfway through 2006. Is this just a normal time-consuming business, adding up a half a dozen designations? What do you think is holding up the 2004 data?

[Barry MacKillop]

At this point, it is almost complete. Certainly the change in government, the transition in the department, and so forth has had an impact on the timing of it and getting it out, but it is coming forward soon.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Oh, so the Conservative government is dragging its feet.

I know new government is a challenge. I was just making light of the circumstance. I wasn't being serious.

Concerning the power that exists here to exempt officers, did you ever have an experience with the use of the writs of assistance, in your career?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes. When I first jointed the RCMP in 1977, one of my first postings was in the drug squad in Toronto. At that time, there were certain members that had access to writs of assistance. I never had one, but I had participated in searches where writs of assistance were used.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

The objective of those writs—and the designations here are conceptually similar—or their public purpose was to allow police with the writs to avoid the strict application of the law for purposes of law enforcement.

If you had any experience with it and you look at the current system, do you prefer the current system or the old system?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I see them as very, very different. Clearly the law enforcement justification would not allow the intrusion of a search for court purposes in order to try to uncover evidence and then justify it later in terms of reasonableness and proportionality. For search warrants, we still submit information to obtain them from a judge and then carry on from there; so they're not used in any way, shape, or form for searches of dwellings, houses, or other places. They're used in the course of an investigation for acts or omissions that would otherwise be an offence.

So I see them as being very different.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So there's no need to compare them. Anyway, you appear to be reasonably satisfied with the applicability of the current system to your circumstances in the RCMP, and you don't have any particular recommendations for a statutory change?