Evidence of meeting #56 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was internet.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
No, I'm just asking specifically for this piece of legislation.
10 a.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
Yes, we were.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Kohan, I'm going to address this to you and Mr. Cannavino.
You both are obviously strong advocates for mandatory minimums on these kinds of crimes, using the U.S. as a model. I'm sitting with this paper I have spread here, with all sorts of statistics that say to me that in spite of all that experience in the United States over the last 20 years--because that's about when it started there--in fact the crime rate in this type of crime remains higher than it is in Canada.
I want to be clear, and I think you know I'm supportive of the increase in the age. As you said, Ms. Kohan, it is one of the tools we need.
While it may be blunt, I think both of you are over the edge on your advocacy in terms of supporting that kind of model. There are models in western Europe that seem, from the statistics I'm looking at, to have been more successful in that society in bringing this type of crime under control as much as we're capable of.
10:05 a.m.
Child Advocate, Founder of MMAP and Co-founder of Project Guardian, Mad Mothers Against Pedophiles
We have to look at the population base as well. The population of California alone is the same population as that of Canada combined. So when you're looking at the statistics, I don't think you can compare apples to apples there, as far as the population base is concerned.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I'm not dealing with absolute numbers. I'm dealing with percentages, and on a per capita basis it's significantly higher in the U.S., and it remains that way.
10:05 a.m.
Child Advocate, Founder of MMAP and Co-founder of Project Guardian, Mad Mothers Against Pedophiles
Maybe there has been more money to actually implement studies. Yesterday, Mr. Comartin, you were actually quoting from the American studies, because we, in Canada, haven't put money toward studying this crime the way we should. I think if we were to actually fund proper studies, we would be appalled at what an epidemic this really is in Canada.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I do have figures that show the same in Canada. The Juristat figures are there.
Mr. Cannavino, do you want to say anything?
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Well, Mr. Cannavino, that flies in the face.... If you understood the psychology of pedophilia.... The candidate for victimization that is preferred is younger and younger, not older and older. I have to say to you, in terms of how statistics are gathered, all the information from the institute that Ms. Kohan referred to is gathered from anecdotal evidence. None of it is based on survey or statistical analysis; it's all anecdotal.
I have to say to both of you, as long as I'm sitting on this committee I'm not going to be pushing for legislation that's based on anecdotal evidence. I want some hard science, some hard statistical evidence.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Do not do that, Mr. Cannavino. My background in sexual and child abuse is more developed than yours.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Luring is in the luring. It is not going to be resolved by legislation. That's going to be resolved by us giving you the tools, as we saw from the work the OPP and the City of Toronto did, in terms of their getting the technological equipment in their hands.
We learned in the last session here that this was a major step forward.
10:10 a.m.
David Griffin Executive Officer, Canadian Police Association
What happens when these people are arrested? That's our issue. What happens once we actually intervene? We don't have the support of the courts or, with due respect, some parliamentarians, on how we deal with these predators when we actually get them.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you, Mr. Comartin.
Mr. Comartin actually brought up a point that I think is relevant, in the sense that we have stats here in this country dealing with a specific crime. South of the border the age limit is two years higher. The stats are obviously going to be different.
Can you actually make comparisons in doing that, and have there been any studies to look at that age group between 14 and 16, which is what they have done south of the border because they have closer access to the court data than we have here?
What are we relying on here, between those ages, so we can see how prevalent this crime is? Is there a record kept by the police? Have there been studies done?
Maybe Mr. Frizzell can answer that question. I do not know.
10:10 a.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
The fact of the matter is it is not a crime; that's why there are no statistics.
10:10 a.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
None that we have done. I am not a researcher and I don't know how you design a study, but we score it as “assistance, general public”. When a parent calls to say their 15-year-old is dating a 40-year-old and has moved in with him and they are very worried about her, we score it as, “assistance, general public”. We go to talk to her perhaps, if we're not too busy. But there are no stats, I am afraid.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm not going to ask anyone to comment on this. I'm going to use my time to say I've only been here almost three years and the display I saw.... I'll exclude Mr. Murphy because he wasn't here, but Ms. Jennings was here all along. I've never seen a display like that. The height of hypocrisy. And again, I'm not asking any of you to comment on this, but when I hear the testimony that you presented today, I don't see how anybody could be against raising the age of consent from 14 to 16. I don't see how anyone could be.
We know from the past that it wasn't done. It's not time to do it now; it's past time to do it. It should have been done years ago. So for anybody to suggest that other members ever supported raising the age of consent, it's entirely untrue.
There's more to this puzzle than just raising the age of consent. I recognize that. The story, Ms. Kohan, that you mentioned about the individuals...we hear those.
There was something Mr. Comartin said about how he expects us all to understand the minds of pedophiles and so on. No. The anecdotal evidence is legitimate. We were all here, as parliamentarians, in Ottawa when, in Ottawa, someone came up here from Texas, where the age of consent is 16, based on a relationship that was developed over the Internet, to have sex with a 14-year-old. His parents were just as shocked as the rest of us when the police said, there's nothing we can do. We can't charge this person for that act because that act was consensual. It's not illegal.
On the issue of Internet luring, we had the opportunity in this Parliament on our Bill C-9.... If there's ever an offence for which I think someone should not receive house arrest, it's Internet luring, because that's where people access the Internet; it's from their homes. If they're in prison, it's controlled. If they're out on the street, then they're going to get access again to a computer. We had within our grasp, in this Parliament, with Bill C-9, the ability to have eliminated the possibility of conditional sentences for Internet luring. I'd like some comment on that, specifically on Internet luring.
I'm going to hit on a few things, and then you can comment.
Some of the evidence that we're hearing today about how fast someone.... It's like sticking a hook in a pool full of fish, almost, with these folks who are preying on kids; they're just out there on the Internet waiting for a 13-year-old to log in.
I met with a police officer from my home town. It was interesting. It's a small police force, the Rothesay Regional Police Force. There are only 20-some members, but they do have one person now who's dedicated to combatting child exploitation on the Internet. He told me that if he got online for a minute or two and put himself down as a 13-year-old girl, which he does all the time, then within minutes someone would be trying to webcam with him. I'd like your comment on that.
Also, we hear the anecdotal evidence, and some of you have alluded to it. It's completely unacceptable that Canada, because of our age of consent, would ever be seen as a child sex tourism destination. Do you have any more comments on that, on people coming to Canada to prey on our kids? I'll tell you, after the testimony we heard from you today, there are going to be people coming here to this committee to suggest perhaps that we're going too far and we shouldn't raise the age of consent.
As much as everyone sounds very positive now, it won't be the same tune when we have a different panel of witnesses, I can assure you of that. We are going to hear evidence from people who say we shouldn't raise the age of consent, and I would like to know what you say to them.
10:15 a.m.
Detective Sergeant, Sex Crimes Unit, Toronto Police Service
If I can jump in here, I have a unit of 14 members dedicated to nothing but child exploitation investigations day in and day out. It does take a toll on them, and I want to recognize that, but I can tell you that every day of every month in this year for peer-to-peer exchanges of child pornography in this country, we could make an arrest every single day.
As far as luring goes, right now there's a class of 20 officers from across Canada who are getting educated on how to do this kind of undercover work. They'll all leave with targets—20 officers with 20 targets—before the end of next week. It's very easy; it's that simple.
But we're underresourced. There are only so many people in Canada right now who are looking at this. Right now we're thrilled to have the size of the units we do, and that's why the statistics are not there, but once you get someone for luring, and you have the whole court process to take them through.... We also have forensic challenges because our forensic people, our technicians, are overworked.
We could bring to you as many arrests as we could possibly handle, and I think that's where we're at. We just don't have the resources to be doing more. With more people, more funding, you would see even greater results, and that's very unfortunate.
10:15 a.m.
Executive Officer, Canadian Police Association
I would just like to add that I think the witness makes a good point in saying that when comparing statistics, it's dangerous to look at those statistics without first evaluating some of the contributing factors. In this case, I would suggest that if you were to double the number of investigators, you would see double the number of charges being laid for the types of offences that exist now.
It's very difficult to take those statistics at absolute value and suggest that in some way in Canada the rate of pedophilia or the rate of assaults on our children is somewhat lower. Certainly the rate of our being able to intervene is lower, but there are a number of factors. We see Bill C-22 as addressing one of those factors.