Evidence of meeting #59 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was young.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Consultant, As an Individual
The truth is, no, it is what it is. Officers do their best. At the same time, crown attorneys will go forward with cases that they think result in conviction and result in the greater good, and these are the kinds of cases that just don't seem to move forward.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Right.
Are there any other questions to the witnesses?
Mr. Comartin.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Barr-Telford, I have a couple of questions on the statistics.
On the chart that you have, the second-last page, we have a precipitous rise from 1981 to 1983, and then an almost similar drop through to the present, but the rate of sexual assaults remains somewhat higher. I don't think I've ever seen a chart have that kind of variance in that short a period of time in any other crime.
My suggestion to explain this is it's a reporting function, that at the beginning we weren't getting the reporting and in the middle part we are. That would explain that bump, but I don't understand why the drop is so dramatic. I don't think there was any particular change in law during that period of time, maybe better enforcement. You can maybe explain that.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
I'll offer a few insights, and also offer my colleague an opportunity to respond.
One of the factors that may be at play in the rise in the first part of that graphic that you're seeing does possibly have to do with the implementation of new legislation. Often after the implementation of new legislation there is a period of time when you might see this kind of trend occurring.
With respect to the post-bump decline, this decline in sexual assault rates is also consistent with a decline that we've seen throughout the entire 1990s in overall crime and in violent crime. This drop and then the stabilization since 1999 is a trend that we're seeing in other violent crimes as well.
Assistant Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
I would simply add that the increase since the legislation, when we went to three levels of sexual assault back in 1983, certainly contributes to that increase. Also, during that period of time, although our statistics don't speak to it directly, obviously there were all kinds of education and awareness campaigns, training of police in how to deal with these cases.
Certainly there is an assumption that more victims perhaps are coming forward as well, as a result of what was going on.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay.
Ms. Mackinnon did this today, and we had two delegations the last time that did the same thing—that is, talked about the average age of sexual activity being around 14.
I looked at your statistics showing that in fact it's only 13% of the 14- and 15-year-olds who engage in sexual activity. I'm hearing this. In fact, I was on national TV a couple of years ago using the 50-percentile figure, saying we were going to criminalize 400,000 or 500,000 youth—in one of those bills, Mr. Sullivan, that you spoke favourably of that didn't have the near-age defence—by going ahead with the raising the age of consent to 16 without the near-age defence.
I'm confused. Is it a question of how we define “sexual activity”? Are your statistics suspect? I'd like a comment from both of you on that.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Let me first comment on what it is that we have presented to you.
It is information that we gathered in the 2000-2001 national longitudinal survey of children and youth, where we posed specific questions around consensual sex and sexual intercourse. I'm not aware of nor familiar with the data to which you are referring. It may be a case of what the definition of sexual activity is.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
I used today the figure of 13%, and I have the precise wording, in fact, of the questions that were posed.
Those who were 14- to 15-year-olds were asked whether they had ever had sexual intercourse; 12- to 13-years-olds we asked whether they had sexual intercourse with a boyfriend or girlfriend, and so forth. It is a specific measure of a specific type of sexual activity. I can't really speak to whether the other data to which you are referring has a broader definition, but the 13% specifically refers to that question.
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Mackinnon, you said that on average people start experimenting at 14. What does that mean?
Executive Director, Justice for Children and Youth
The source for our data is a 2003 study, so it may be—I don't know—that it's a different year. That's the source.
Indeed, the notion of what constitutes sexual activity has broadened, and this study had as its purpose exploring the prevention of HIV/AIDS, so we were talking about “risk behaviours”, I guess not all of which, but nearly all of which, will include intercourse.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Barr-Telford, the figure for using sexual intercourse would not include oral intercourse or anal intercourse.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Quite honestly, it is what the question is in terms of what is posed to the respondent. It's what he or she replies to in terms of “sexual intercourse”.
NDP
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
I have no way of knowing, but the question was very specifically “Have you ever had sexual intercourse?”
Executive Director, Justice for Children and Youth
This isn't a study, but I can tell you anecdotally that many of our clients—and I've read this and can't tell you where those studies were, but I know I have read it as well—many young people are very precise in what they consider or would disclose as “having had sexual intercourse”. Of many things, like oral sex, they would say, “Oh, well, I'm still a virgin.” There are many ways of describing their own conduct that would tend—
NDP
Executive Director, Justice for Children and Youth
Apparently. Perhaps that's where they learned.
Let me use the opportunity to just say one other thing that rather concerns me and is the reason that pushed Justice for Children and Youth to look for a rebuttable presumption. That is that, while on the one hand one would hope that young people in a happy family can benefit from the guidance of their parents, what you don't want is to drive kids to the point where they won't tell their parents what they're doing because they're afraid. Many of the charges that we're aware of that get laid currently are because the parents complain to the police.
It's the driving underground of the behaviour that I earlier referred to as seeking out of information and being willing to disclose, but that's an additional concern that reveals itself in the way young people describe their behaviour as well. They're very careful and self-protective about it.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Barr-Telford, on the point about the near-age defence and the relationships that we have, I went through your paper again. I didn't see it. I think you said something verbally, that we had some information as to what percentage of youth are engaged in sexual conduct with somebody who is within the five years, and then above.
Did you give us some figures on that? I couldn't find them. Do we have anything reliable as to how many relationships are going to be above the five-year near-age defence?
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Your question is about how many are having sexual relationships and the age of the partner?
No, I don't have information on the age of the partner of those who reported having sexual intercourse.
What I did provide was information, with respect to sexual offences, on the relationship of the accused to victims as well as the age of the accused and the age of victims. It is very specific to sexual offences.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
And we don't have any other study that shows how many are above the near-age defence that we're providing for in this legislation?
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
With respect to sexual activity and sexual relations, I do not have that information.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I have just one more, Mr. Chair.
To the Bar Association, this is a potential charter challenge coming from the gay, lesbian, and transgendered community. This is the argument that I've heard, that because of that culture, separate from the heterosexual community—I want to say to you I haven't accepted this argument, but I've heard it, and I'm just wondering if you've had an opportunity to hear it and consider it, whether it is a concern we should have. The argument is that within that culture it is more common for the age to be greater than five years where there is sexual contact between the two partners—consensual, but greater than five years.
Have you heard the argument?
And then the argument is that at some point we'll put demographics in front of a court showing that it's a different culture, so it's discriminatory within that culture; therefore, this section will get struck down, at least with regard to gay, lesbian, and transgendered community members.
Branch Section Chair, Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Conference, Canadian Bar Association
I have heard that argument. I believe it was part of the submissions from EGALE Canada and possibly other groups. It would be speculative for me to give an opinion on a charter issue on that, so there's not much that I can say on it.
What I can say is that the CBA does support the age of consent as currently set out in Bill C-22, and to that extent, we don't raise the same argument that Egale has made on that point.