Evidence of meeting #63 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Saunders  Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
John Sims  Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I call to order the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

It being Tuesday, April 24, 2007, our agenda, as noted, is a review of the estimates 2007-08, under Justice, referred to this committee on February 27, 2007.

Appearing before the committee is the Honourable Rob Nicholson, Minister of Justice. We appreciate the time the minister has set aside for the estimates today. He will be with us for two hours.

From the justice department we have Mr. John Sims, Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, and from the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr. Brian Saunders, Acting Director of Public Prosecutions.

Thank you, Minister. The floor is yours.

9:05 a.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased to be back in front of you.

I'm pleased to see Mr. Rick Dykstra, one of my colleagues from the Niagara Peninsula and now a member of this committee. It's nice to see him here. I know of his dedication to justice issues, and I appreciate that.

Mr. Chairman, I've learned over the years that any time you get up to speak, if you're going to start recognizing people in a crowd, then you should have the names written down in advance so that you don't miss anyone. I missed someone yesterday. I was at the National Victims of Crime Awareness Week symposium in Ottawa, and when I got up to introduce the first federal ombudsman for victims of crime, I recognized my colleagues Stockwell Day, Dean Allison, and Laurie Hawn. I didn't see Ms. Jennings in the audience, and I apologize to her for that.

I actually noticed you, Ms. Jennings, as I was walking off the podium, when I saw you in the second or third row. That's not something I would do; I would certainly acknowledge all my colleagues in the House of Commons. In future, I'll revert to my usual procedure, which is to write down the names of the people I'm going to acknowledge—or not do it at all.

In any case, I'm glad to see you here, and I'm glad you were at the meeting yesterday.

It is a pleasure for me to meet with the members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to discuss the main estimates for the Department of Justice.

And I'm pleased to have my colleagues joining me here today—and you have introduced them, Mr. Chairman.

You would know, Mr. Chairman, as well that not only am I Minister of Justice and Attorney General, but my portfolio also includes the Canadian Human Rights Commission and the Supreme Court of Canada.

The Minister of Justice, of course, is also responsible for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, created last December by the Federal Accountability Act to enshrine in legislation the notion of prosecutorial independence.

I'll speak more about that in a moment, but first of all, I want to say that the work of the Department of Justice focuses on ensuring that Canada is a just and law-abiding society, with an accessible, efficient, and fair system of justice, providing high-quality legal services and counsel to the government and to client departments and agencies, and promoting respect for the rule of law.

Within this broad context, the department has a specific priority to develop legislation and policy that address crime more effectively and increase the confidence of Canadians in the judicial system. Ultimately this will promote safer communities for all Canadians and have a very real impact on their lives.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased with the progress that our government has made on the priorities of Canadians, particularly in the realm of tackling crime. My predecessor, Minister Toews, was placed in charge of an ambitious legislative agenda. I have now taken on the challenge of that agenda and will continue to work diligently to guide the legislation through the House and of course will work with this committee.

One overarching priority has guided our government's work over the past 14 months, and that is safer communities for all Canadians. Part of that priority is tackling crime. From the beginning of our mandate, we have been committed to stronger laws that deal with gangs, guns, and drugs; ensuring serious consequences for serious crimes; and ensuring that our communities are safe from crime. That commitment has not wavered.

We also believe that Canada's justice system must adapt to the needs of the 21st century so that it can remain in step with changes in technology and an increasingly sophisticated population. In these endeavours, I've been working closely with my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, Stockwell Day, to deliver on that promise to tackle crime.

We have introduced legislation on a number of fronts. For example, Bill C-35 proposes to shift the onus to the person accused of serious gun crimes to explain why they should not be denied bail. And Bill C-18 intends to strengthen our national DNA data bank and help our police forces identify the guilty and exonerate the innocent.

I am pleased to say that with the support of all parties in the House we brought into force Bill Bill C-19, which creates new offences that target street racing specifically. These new offences recognize street racing for what it is, a reckless and dangerous act that too often kills. With our new legislation, people who treat our public streets as race tracks will be dealt with more seriously.

We also passed legislation, introduced by my colleague, the Minister of Finance, the Honourable Jim Flaherty, to strengthen the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act. These changes will help ensure that Canada continues to be a global leader in combatting organized crime and terrorist financing.

We are also committed to better meet the needs of victims of crime in areas where the federal government is responsible. Our government has listened and responded to victims of crime, giving them the respect they deserve. We have established the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. Just yesterday, I was pleased to name Steve Sullivan as the first federal ombudsman. This office will be an independent resource for victims who have concerns about areas for which the federal government is responsible, including the federal correction system. Mr. Sullivan will work at arm's length from the government so that victims will be more confident that their views are being heard.

We also recently provided $52 million in funding over the next four years to boost programs, services, and funding for victims of crime, including: enhancing financial assistance to victims to travel to sentencing hearings to deliver victim impact statements, as well as to National Parole Board hearings; increasing funding for services in the north, where rates of victimization are much higher than in the rest of Canada; and providing limited emergency financial assistance for Canadians who become victims of serious violent crimes while abroad.

However, Mr. Chairman, the government also recognizes that it is equally important to prevent criminal behaviour before it has a chance to take root. We are addressing the root causes of crime by supporting community programs with effective social programs and sound economic policies.

In support of these goals, Budget 2007 commits $64 million over the next two years to create a national anti-drug strategy. This investment builds on ongoing annual funding for current programs and initiatives. This government is determined to sever these links by implementing a coherent, comprehensive national strategy against drugs. Although some details of the strategy remain to be worked out, I can say that it will focus on preventing drug use, treating drug addiction, and combatting drug production and distribution. Together, these three action plans will form an integrated, focused, and balanced approach to reducing the supply and demand for illicit drugs as well as the crime associated with them, leading to healthier individuals and safer communities. The strategy will address all illegal drugs, including marijuana, and will include a national awareness campaigned aimed at young people.

To succeed over the long term, I believe we must educate young people about the real risks associated with drug use, such as the dangers to mental and physical health, potential legal consequences, and impacts on career and travel options. It will also spur communities into action and engage local leaders in preventing the harm caused by illegal drugs.

Our government is also providing $20 million over two years to support community-based programs that provide youth at risk with positive opportunities and help them make good choices. And we will continue to work with the provinces, municipalities, police, and community leaders in areas threatened by gun and gang violence to support programs that reach out to young people.

We've also continued the drug treatment court program, which is an important initiative of the Department of Justice. In conjunction with Health Canada, my department has been instrumental in expanding the concept of drug treatment courts beyond the initial pilot program in Toronto to several communities across Canada. Our government supports the use of drug treatment courts because they help reduce criminal behaviour and drug use while holding offenders accountable for their actions.

We've also made changes to improve and strengthen the justice system. Last November, my predecessor implemented changes to the judicial advisory committees. These changes have broadened the base of stakeholders who will contribute to their discussion and assessment of competence and excellence required for federally appointed judges.

More specifically, we've included members of the law enforcement community, a community no less implicated in the administration of justice than lawyers and judges. These new members contribute another perspective on the competent and qualified individuals recommended to me for appointment to the bench. And we have moved expeditiously to fill vacancies in federal and provincial courts. To date, we have appointed 84 federal judges. I think this is an impressive record, given that the coming into force of Bill C-17 on December 14, 2006, provided federally appointed judges with new options for electing supernumerary status, which created even more vacancies. However, I must emphasize that we will not sacrifice the quality of our appointments in the interest of speed. These appointments will continue to be based on merit and legal excellence.

Additionally, in the interests of accountability we have created the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and have now begun the process of selecting a permanent director. Candidates will be assessed by a committee, with representation from each political party, the senior public service, and the legal profession. As Attorney General, I will make a choice from among three candidates, and that choice will be referred for approval to a committee of Parliament.

By establishing this office as an entity separate from the Department of Justice, our government has it made absolutely clear that criminal prosecutions are independent from political influence.

At this point, I must clear up two misconceptions.

First of all, this action does not suggest that the government believes federal prosecutors were unduly influenced in the past. As my predecessor Minister Toews has said:

We are not here to correct a problem that has already occurred; we are here to prevent problems from arising in the future.

Second, it's simply incorrect to state, as has been reported, that creating this office has cost the taxpayers an additional $98 million. The truth is this figure represents the budget of the former Federal Prosecution Service, which was a division of the Department of Justice. After the transfer, the budget for the department decreased.

The key driver in creating this office is to be as cost neutral as possible. It is in fact an investment that will benefit Canadians and increase their confidence in the justice system.

Mr. Chairman, although our government has been making great strides in improving our justice system, there is still a great deal left to accomplish.

There are still nine bills in Parliament for which I am responsible as Minister of Justice and which I am committed to bringing into force.

We introduced Bill C-9 to restrict the use of conditional sentences to ensure that people who commit serious crimes will serve their time behind bars, not in the community.

We introduced Bill C-10 to impose escalating mandatory minimum penalties for serious gun-related crimes. This legislation outlines clear consequences for gun crimes: prison sentences that are in keeping with the gravity of the offence.

As I mentioned, Bill C-10 seeks to increase the minimum penalty for gun crimes. This matter will soon be discussed in Parliament, and I hope that bill will be restored to the way it was prior to being amended.

Our legislative priorities also include Bill C-27, which will ensure tougher sentences and more effective management of dangerous offenders, including imposing stricter conditions on repeat offenders to keep such criminals from offending again. Bill C-27 responds to concerns that repeat and violent sexual predators are not being properly sentenced or managed once released into the community by strengthening the dangerous offender provisions and sections 810.1 and 810.2, the peace bond provisions, of the Criminal Code. No one will be automatically designated a dangerous offender upon third conviction, and that's another misconception, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to clear up. Crown prosecutors may or may not elect to seek dangerous offender status. In those cases where the Crown elects to proceed, the offender will be given the opportunity to explain why they should not be designated as dangerous, and judges will determine whether the offender should be designated as a dangerous offender.

We are also working to strengthen the laws against alcohol-impaired and drug-impaired driving. Bill C-32 will ensure that drug-impaired drivers face similar testing to that which drunk drivers now face. It will give police better tools to detect and investigate drug- and alcohol-impaired driving, and it will increase penalties.

Bill C-22, which this committee recently considered and supported, will better protect youth against adult sexual predators, including against such predators on the Internet, by raising the age of sexual consent from 14 years to 16 years. I believe there is a broad consensus among Canadians that raising the age of protection is the right thing to do. We know it is strongly supported by many who work with youth or advocate on their behalf. I know there's a great deal of support across different levels of government, and indeed across the political spectrum.

This law would also bring Canada in line with many other developed countries throughout the world. It's time to get serious in dealing with the crimes of adult sexual predators and it's time to take a realistic and respectful approach to protecting our young people.

Beyond the legislative agenda is our role as the lead department on the national anti-drug strategy, as announced in Budget 2007. The Department of Justice has traditionally had a role in supporting the development of drug policy, and until recently played an integral part in the prosecution of drug offences. It also has responsibility for the youth justice policy development, including the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

As mentioned previously, along with preventing illicit drug use and treating dependency, this strategy will also crack down on gangs and combat illicit drug production such as grow-ops and methamphetamine labs.

I will work hard to ensure that the government's tackling crime agenda progresses through Parliament in my role as justice minister and Attorney General, so that we can all enjoy safer streets and more secure communities.

Mr. Chairman, our government has done more than just promise to improve Canada's system of justice to create safer communities; we have backed it up with financial resources. I am pleased to note that Budget 2007 reflects the government's commitment to building safer communities and creating a better Canada. We are cooperating on a number of initiatives.

On the new national drug strategy, which I have mentioned, we are committed to $64 million over the next two years to refocus current efforts on combatting illicit drug use and manufacturing, as well as prevention and treatment.

We renewed the aboriginal justice strategy with funding of $14.5 million over two years. This will significantly increase the number of aboriginal communities and people that have access to community justice programs. Under the strategy, aboriginal communities will take greater responsibility for the administration of justice, leading to a further reduction in crime and positive impacts at the community level.

We have allocated an additional $6 million per year to strengthen current activities on combatting the sexual exploitation and trafficking of children and to ensure that those who commit these heinous crimes are brought to justice.

In addition, for the first time in more than 10 years, the provinces and territories will have stable and predictable funding for criminal legal aid. This approach will permit jurisdictions to develop long-term strategies to support the delivery of criminal legal aid.

Budget 2007 takes important steps to prevent crime, as well as the precursors of crime, and to ensure that our corrections, intelligence, and security systems are strong.

Finally, the government recently received the House of Commons subcommittee and special Senate committee reports on the review of the Anti-terrorism Act. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of both committees for their excellent work in tackling the numerous issues they were confronted with in the course of their review.

Both committees addressed issues of great concern to the government, and we will consider these recommendations very carefully.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank you and your committee members for your important work. It is an honour for me to take part in this process as Canada's Minister of Justice.

However, I am acutely aware that improving Canada's system of justice is a collaborative effort. Our system is a shared responsibility with the provinces and territories, and our many programs and initiatives require collaboration with our provincial and territorial partners as well as municipalities and other government departments. Together we will continue to work to ensure that Canada's system of justice contributes to the safety and security and well-being of Canadians.

Thank you for this opportunity. I look forward to any questions or comments you may have.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Minister.

That was a fairly lengthy report, actually.

I, for one, am very pleased to hear of Mr. Steve Sullivan's appointment as the ombudsman. I think that was a good pick, and I know many of the members on this committee have had contact with Mr. Sullivan over the years.

Questions?

Ms. Jennings.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you very much for your explanation as to what happened yesterday morning. I appreciate that, Minister.

I have a few questions. In terms of youth justice, page 15 of the Report on Plans and Priorities indicates that your department will develop options to strengthen the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I would like to know first off what the term "strengthen" means. This is new legislation. I think it has been in effect for only three years. Generally, if you are preparing legislative reform options for new legislation, it is because you've noted some shortcomings, aspects which could, in your view, stand to be improved. What weaknesses do you see in the YCJA that need to be remedied? Is the number of crimes being committed by young people on the rise in Canada? If so, by how much, and what types of crimes are being committed? Violent crimes, property crimes, etc.?

My second set of questions has to do with access to justice. We have set up a legal aid system, as have the provinces, to help Canadians who do not have the means to be represented before the courts, criminal courts but also civil and administrative tribunals. We know that there is an increasing number of unrepresented accused and litigants in our courts.

Statements in the Report on Plans and Priorities seem contradictory. On page 33 we see the contributions respecting legal aid total $44.5 million in 2006-2007 whereas page 36 of the report indicates that the contribution to the provinces to assist in the operation of legal aid systems will decrease by $30 million in 2006-2007. Moreover, page 37 indicates that $40 million will be spent in 2007-2008. Can you clarify how much the federal government will spend on legal aid in 2007-2008, including transfers or contributions to the provinces for the operation of their legal aid system? Is this an increase or a decrease over previous years? Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You had a lot there, Madam Jennings.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

You know the rules. You've been on committees before, Minister. If you can't answer all of them, you forward the answers in writing to the members through the chair.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I would be glad to do that, for sure.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I'm sure you would.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You started off by talking about the youth criminal justice system, and in particular you made references to the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

First of all, I'm not sure if in my appearances before this committee I've had much of an opportunity to talk about that. I, for one, believe in a separate law and a separate regime for dealing with young people. I think we have a greater opportunity to change the direction of a young person's life if we get at the problems that are causing that individual to commit crimes and give that individual the support and treatment he or she needs. So I have been a supporter of the various incarnations of laws that have come forward that deal specifically with young people.

That being said, we indicated to Canadians in the last general election that we would bring about changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I can tell you that in the short period of time that I have been Minister of Justice, one of the areas most often raised with me by either my provincial counterparts or individuals involved with the criminal justice system is this particular piece of legislation. I think it can and should be improved, and we are committed to doing that. We will introduce legislation in that regard.

As a political party, in the last election we indicated that we believe that deterrence and denunciation should be included in the principles when it comes to sentencing a young person. We are having a look as well at the penalty sections for youth who commit serious or violent or repeat offences. So we're looking at that, and I will bring that legislation forward in due course.

We have a very busy legislative agenda, as you know, and I'd like to see progress made on the legislation we have.

You talked as well about legal aid, and you—

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Just one moment. Before you go to legal aid, could you answer my final question about the youth justice system, which was whether the rate of crime or the number of crimes being committed by youth in Canada is on the rise, and if so, to what extent? Are they violent crimes? Are they crimes against property, and so on? Where are the increases, if there are increases?

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't have the statistics with me, Madam Jennings, but I will forward those to the committee.

As you indicated in your opening comments to me, we will carefully look at all the questions or issues that are raised. I appreciate that two hours is somewhat confining for all the different issues that involve the criminal justice system. So if there are any of these we don't get to or any that need further elaboration, I would certainly be pleased to pass that on.

One of the items you talked about was the subject of legal aid. And you quite correctly pointed out, on three different occasions, various or different amounts. It's the way the accounting is done in this city. Between the supplementary estimates, between the estimates and the priorities and planning of the government, it can be somewhat confusing to anyone, having had a look at it. But I can assure you that our funding for legal aid has not decreased. Rather than doing what was done in the past, when there was base funding and then supplemental funding, we have turned it all into what is known as base stable funding that the provinces can count on.

I think I've covered the areas pretty well, and I'm sure you'll remind me.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I'd like to know the actual amount for legal aid for 2007-08, including the transfers to the provinces for their systems, and whether this is an increase or a decrease from previous years—specific amounts, please.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The amount is $560 million over the next five years for criminal legal aid, and for non-criminal legal aid it's $57 million over the next five years. Those are increased amounts.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Mr. Ménard.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Welcome, Mr. Minister. I would be remiss not to express my disappointment regarding the appointment of Mr. Sullivan, who is undoubtedly a competent individual, but this is the second time your government has appointed unilingual anglophones to important positions. I am putting the committee on notice that I will be introducing a motion to that effect. Mr. Rothstein, who has been appointed to the Supreme Court, does not speak French, nor do several ministers. Unilingual anglophones continue to be appointed to these positions, and I consider that shameful. I cannot understand that others do not share my concerns.

That said, it is not what I wanted to discuss with you today.

First off, there is some information I would like you to send us in writing. I am not expecting a verbal response from you, because these are rather technical matters, but I would like you to explain in writing the following: $12,274 was granted to the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police for the Law Amendments Committee; the grant in support of the Child-centred Family Justice Fund and the grant in support of the Youth Justice Fund. Tell us in writing what these initiatives are meant to accomplish, how much will be granted per province and who will be using these funds.

Second, when we look at the department's overall operations, it is surprising to note a rather sharp increase in spending of $320 million. Perhaps that is good news if it amounts to additional services for people. I understand that out of these $320 million, approximately $100 million will be going to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. When your predecessor, who was also a unilingual anglophone, announced the establishment of an Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, there were some concerns. Some people wondered what the office's purpose would be given that all of the Criminal Code offences are under provincial jurisdiction while the federal government is responsible for specific legislation. Some wondered what the connection would be between the office you hold, as Attorney General of Canada, ultimately responsible for prosecutions, and that of the new director of public prosecutions. Please provide us with as many details as you can to explain how this money will be used. Aside from the appointment of the director—and we hope the position will be filled by a bilingual person—in what way will this tangibly serve the administration of justice?

Here is my second question. Some organizations are concerned. I know that you are very interested in a national drug strategy. I myself sat on the special committee which was created, on one of your former colleague's initiative, to address the non-medicinal use of drugs. Apparently, 73% of the $245 million earmarked for this strategy will be used for law enforcement purposes. Do you get the sense that this is a trend we should correct, so as to increasingly invest in prevention?

In summary, tell us about the director of public prosecutions and the national drug strategy.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Ménard.

I do not speak French very well yet, but I do understand.

I appreciate the importance of providing services in both official languages. Mr. Sullivan is committed to proficiency in the French language, and my understanding is that he will have the resources to improve. I can't analyze how much he speaks or understands, but he and I shared some comments yesterday at the symposium attended by Madam Jennings and a number of us. One individual spoke entirely in French, and he and I compared notes to make sure we understood what was being said. He is committed to that proficiency, and I take note of the comments you've made.

You asked about the youth justice services program. This is an ongoing program that has been around since 1984. It's been under various names, which actually might lead to a bit of confusion if you're looking at the estimates and trying to compare last year with this year. Because the previous program expired on March 31 this year, we entered into a number of consultations with the provinces in Ontario to come up with a new agreement. The new agreement will cover the five-year period from April 1 of last year to 2010 at a cost of $177.3 million. We believe that working with the provinces to assist youth is an excellent expenditure of funds.

As to the Director of Public Prosecutions, one of the things I wanted to make clear in my opening comments is that we didn't set up the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions because we believed there was a problem at the present time with criminal prosecutions in this country. We believe it's in the overall best interests of the administration of justice, with respect to the Criminal Code and related statutes, to have an independent office that would operate at arm's length but still be responsible to the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice, as you quite correctly pointed out, would ultimately be responsible for that appointment.

You may be aware that we will involve members of all political parties in having input on who that individual will be. I think it's an idea whose time has come, and I'm pleased that Mr. Brian Saunders, who is with me now, is the Acting Director of Public Prosecutions.

Since you've concluded your remarks, comments, and questions on that, I'll invite him to make any comments he likes. That might give you further edification.

9:40 a.m.

Brian Saunders Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions

I believe you asked a question regarding the expenses and activities of the Director of Public Prosecutions. In the Report on Plans and Priorities four commitments are set out. These are four areas of activity for which Department of Justice funds were transferred to us. The first activity involves the prosecution of drug, organized crime and Criminal Code offences. As you may know, in the north and in the territories, our office is responsible for prosecutions. Ninety-nine million dollars were earmarked for 2007-2008.

The second major area of activity for our office will be the prosecution of federal offences to protect the environment, national resources, economic and social health. Nineteen million dollars are allocated to that end for 2007-2008. These will be prosecutions pursuant to federal legislation like the Fisheries Act, for instance.

The third area of activity is to contribute to a safer world for Canada. It will involve prosecution of offences related to terrorism or pursuant to the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Terrorist Financing Act. That would be $5 million.

The last activity is the promotion of a fair and effective justice system. Only $1 million has been allocated to this area, but this amount is to be used, among other things, to retain the services of counsel working in collaboration with police officers from the Canadian Police College. It is to support police officer training, to enable them to conduct investigations which are consistent with the law.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

You did not answer the question regarding the strategy. Seventy-three per cent of the $245-million budget goes to organizations responsible for law enforcement. That is of concern to some groups. I know that you are very concerned about drugs and that people in your office are working very hard on this.

How do you react to the statement that 73% of the budget goes to law enforcement organizations, not to prevention activities? Would you like to change that?

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Monsieur Ménard, you may have inadvertently indicated that the main estimates show an increase of $320,000; in fact that is a decrease. If you're asking me in general about the split between law enforcement agencies and other programs to prevent, there's always a balance that we try to strike to ensure that law enforcement individuals—in our case the RCMP—have the resources they need, and that the Director of Public Prosecutions has the resources he needs in the prosecution of the offences for which he is responsible.

Again, we support programs and initiatives that try to prevent crime or work with individuals. The aboriginal justice strategy is a case in point. The reports I have received on that show it has worked very well in reducing recidivism and getting people involved with individuals who have run afoul of the law. It seems to me that's a good example of where money and funds are being expended to assist individuals. Not just me, but the provincial attorneys general across this country have to strike that balance. I believe we generally get it right and we're on the right track.

Thank you for your comments.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Monsieur Ménard.

Mr. Comartin.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, Mr. Sims, and Mr. Saunders for being here. The chair and I have had various discussions about how we handle estimates. I know we both share a common concern that we just don't have the resources to properly assess, not just your department, Mr. Minister, but any other department when we sit on committees where we're responsible for the estimates.

Has your department and your government looked at any way of improving the way we as committee members and members of Parliament handle the estimates so there's a more effective, meaningful review?

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

As I was saying to Madam Jennings a few minutes ago, I can understand how it might be very difficult to go through—

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

It's not difficult; it's impossible. Mr. Minister, we have both looked at the financial statements of small and large corporations and agencies in our professional careers. But as an individual member of Parliament, when I'm supposed to do an analysis of this in some kind of meaningful way, with limited staff and resources, it is impossible. Provincial levels of government do a much more meaningful review of estimates than we do at the federal level.

Is the government looking at any way of improving our ability as individual members of Parliament, both in government and on the opposition side, to deal with these?

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Sims has indicated to me that over the last five or six years he believes there have been some improvements in the presentation of these reports. The Auditor General herself has flagged this on a number of occasions.

It's a complicated business, and the Government of Canada has huge responsibilities and is involved in many, many areas of public life in this country.

I indicated to one of your colleagues here today that if anything in particular is a problem, we would be pleased to provide you with that information. We would get any details you want.

Is there a better way to do it? I'm not quite sure what that better way would be. I'm certainly open to pass on any suggestions you might have.

I think part of the complicated process is the whole question of supplementary estimates, which you get in two parts. In my preparation for coming before you today, I had to look at it very carefully. I had to ask a lot of questions as to where the money is in terms of a number of programs I know we announced, and those are part of estimates.

So I can see that anybody would find this very, very difficult. What I can say to you is, if there are any areas or a lot of areas you would like to have further information on so you can do your job—I appreciate the job you do. This is a job that is as old as the parliamentary system itself, going back hundreds of years—the scrutiny by members of Parliament of the funds necessary to run the government.

So I appreciate that it is complicated. I can appreciate that it can be very confusing. But I can say to you that we will certainly do our very best to accommodate any questions you have. I take note of your comments in the overall context, because, as I say, it is not easy for me, and I have responsibility for the department to make sure that all the funding is properly there.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Let me go into a few specifics. In terms of the Director of Public Prosecutions, you indicated the budget now showing on the line item is $96 million or $98 million a year. But you said you wanted it to be cost neutral. Is it?

Let me put that in the context of where I want to challenge you, Mr. Minister. That director is not an independent office. In terms of its reporting function, its appointment, who can determine which prosecutions? All that's reserved to the AG.

But you also have not been able to identify any need for this. You're anticipating, which I suppose being a strong proponent of prevention I can anticipate, but how much is it costing us for a need that has not been established?