Justice Committee on April 24th, 2007

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I indicated to you, or it has been indicated to you before, that we're making every effort to make sure it is cost neutral as close as possible. Obviously, there are costs associated with setting up any new office or regime.

That being said, you asked with respect to the need for this. The AG, as you correctly pointed out, is not completely divorced from this in terms of the individual; there are still rights and responsibilities reserved to the Attorney General.

But I am of the opinion that it is a step in the right direction. Again, you quite correctly pointed out we are doing this for preventative purposes. I think that's legitimate. I am careful to suggest that previous attorneys general did not abuse the responsibility that was given to them, but to the extent that we move these decisions and put some distance between the Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions, I think it's a good move.

Mr. Saunders, do you have any comments on that as well?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Has there been an analysis of the additional cost just for the creation of the department--that interim phase--and then on an ongoing basis, do we not know how much more it's going to cost versus if we had just left it alone?

[Brian Saunders]

We set out some of those additional costs in the plans and priorities. You'll see on page 21 that we have, under the heading “Adjustments”, an indication that under the federal accountability action plan there were permanent transition costs of $7.8 million a year, and those would be ongoing. They are to cover the costs of establishing a corporate services within the office of the department's director.

There is a one-time transition cost of $15 million spread over two years, $10 million this year and $5 million in 2008-09, and that's to cover the cost of relocating headquarters, involving some infrastructure and other costs associated with setting up the new department.

With respect to those costs I have just mentioned, we have to go to a Treasury Board submission to access those moneys back in the supplementary estimates.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

We'll watch for them then.

In terms of the $20 million for the community-based preventative programs, that's $10 million over two years. Last year, your predecessor—and I have to say, I'm not sure whether the answer came from him or from Mr. Day—said that at that point they still had not determined how the initial $10 million for the 2005-06 period was going to be spent.

Has any of this money in fact been spent in the first year, and is it scheduled to be spent in the second year, for the second $20 million?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Comartin, are you talking about the youth-based programs?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You used the term “community-based”. This was money that was specifically designated to go to agencies that were doing community-based preventative work. It was one of your campaign promises in the—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's part of our youth justice initiative, and I indicated to you that the agreements on that are stable funding. I think I gave the amount to Madam Jennings of $177.3 million over the five years, beginning with last year. It has come under different names, but these programs, working with provincial attorneys general, are in place right now and they will continue.

Do you have any further comment on that, Mr. Sims?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I think we're talking, Mr. Minister, of two different funds. At least, in the estimates last year, this was broken out as a separate figure.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think we'll be able to give you a few more details, Mr. Comartin. One of our individuals is coming to the table right now and should be able to cast a little more light on this.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Being conscious of the time, can I jump quickly to the law commission?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, by all means, go ahead, and we'll come back to that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I thought it was kind of an interesting report, with the assumption being in the written report that they were going to continue to be funded, which of course didn't happen.

Has your department done anything to replace the research and work that the law commission was doing, and if so, have you done any funding of that, and to what degree?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As you know, Mr. Comartin, the decision to cease funding to the law commission took place last year. We have no plans to reinstitute the law commission, just so you know.

The Department of Justice continues, obviously, its own internal research with respect to criminal justice issues. I can tell you that I know that research goes on across this country, certainly at law schools and by individuals connected with the system at the provincial level, but we have no specific program that I'm either announcing now or have intentions to announce to have some sort of outside research.

We analyze very carefully, obviously, the issues that are before us. I'm provided with excellent advice by the Department of Justice that's well researched, comprehensive, and works very well in terms of the responsibilities we have.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You're only human, Mr. Minister, and we don't have enough of them to take on that responsibility.

I have just one last question, on the children's ombudsman. How did you determine the amount of $1.5 million, for instance? Did you look at Ontario's ombudsman and see what their budget was?

I have been critical, as you know, that it's nowhere near adequate for the responsibility that the person will have to carry for the whole of this country, and I share Mr. Ménard's concern over him not being bilingual.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much for that comment.

The budget we have put in place for that individual comes from our own analysis, and we had a look at what we think this individual will need, the resources, if the budget allows him or her—in this case, him—to hire eight individuals to get the office going. It seems to me that we have to start somewhere, and it seems to me that what we have proposed for that individual and their office is a reasonable budget.

You said $1.5 million isn't going to do the job. Obviously, first of all, I think it will, and I will watch it very carefully to make sure that individual has the resources and is able to do the job. I say let's give it some time. We can revisit these things, and I'd be the first one, if the individual said we can't get the job done with the budget that has been presented—I would certainly have a look at that. But I fully expect that individual will be able to get the job done.

As well, I want that individual to be very focused on the mandate he has, that his job is the issues that concern victims in this country. I don't want an expansion into a lot of different areas; it has to be focused on that. I'm sure you share with me the concern for victims in this country, and I've always liked the idea of having one person who has complete responsibility in that area, because for too long we have not done enough for victims who get caught up in the system. When things go wrong or there are emerging issues, I want to have one individual and one office.

I believe the resources are there, and the additional resources, as you would know, go to the victims fund. I was very pleased to see that expanded, and funds go into that program, because that helps the victims directly: the individuals who want to attend parole hearings or need support to get to a parole hearing, the Canadian who becomes a victim of crime overseas and for whatever reason can't afford—or can't get home and needs assistance.

These are major improvements. So in terms of the balance between the administration office of the federal ombudsman and the victims fund, I wanted to see as much money as possible in the victims fund and a lesser amount, of course, on the bureaucracy. Again, I will watch them both very carefully, and I appreciate your comments on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Minister, I know that Mr. Comartin's question on the $20 million has not been answered at this point in time. If you can quickly respond to him, I'm going to move on to the next questioner. Time is moving on.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Can I?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Please do. Yes.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Okay.

The $10 million that you referred to is part of—

[A voice]

It's over two years.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's over two years, Mr. Chairman. It's $10 million each year, and in fact it has been spent. These measures were specifically put in place to address questions of violence, gang, and gun involvement.

My colleague Stockwell Day, as you know, has made a number of announcements on this, to have a fund available to, among other things, reduce gang-related violence and gang participation. So the money is being spent, and it's being spent over a period of two years—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Whose budget?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's our budget; our budget has it.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Can we have the details of those? Is that—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

No problem at all. I think we can provide that for you.