Justice Committee on March 11th, 2008

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

They can go about their business...?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

There are a couple of provisions that specifically address the people who have a legitimate purpose for what they are doing, where they're carrying out an investigation.

I gave one example of the parent who might have passports. Again, I believe there are three different areas where we make specific provision for people who have a legitimate purpose for what they're doing, so that we're not catching them with this.

[William Bartlett]

The bill also makes the obtaining of the identify information an offence only if you either intend to use that for a further offence that involves fraud or deception or you're passing it on to someone else who you know or believe is reckless as to whether or not they're going to use it for that purpose. It's the addition of the very specific purpose for the obtaining of the identity information that should deal with the concerns of the private investigators.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

Madame Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Minister and officials.

First, I would like to underscore the relevance of the introduction of this bill, because it responds to the emergence of a major problem both here in Canada and elsewhere. As the minister so aptly put it, different types of criminals have a hand in identity theft, including organized crime networks. Currently, organized crime networks from Ukraine, Russia and other countries have taken over the identity theft network here, in Montreal and Vancouver.

Given the international dimension that identity theft has taken on, is the federal government cooperating with other countries to combat this problem? To what extent does Bill C-27 deal with the transcontinental nature of identity theft? Could the minister give me an answer?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I did mention, Madam Freeman, in my remarks the international convention that we had signed on and ratified in the year 2002. The drafting of this legislation took particular interest in the convention to make sure that we were on side. I indicated in my opening remarks that this will assist us when there are questions of extradition because we will have laws in place that are similar to other like-minded countries.

In terms of my own personal involvement, I can tell you that in June, when I was at the G-8-plus meeting of justice ministers and public security ministers, this was one of the topics we talked about. We talked about furthering the cooperation between our countries, trying to bring in laws with a view to the legislation in other countries, so that there are some similarities and so that they could work together in terms of, for instance, the extradition. It seems to me that there was a widespread belief that we have to do more.

Interestingly enough--I think you mentioned the Russians--I had the Russian minister of justice, or the public security minister equivalent, indicate that they had sent out a memo with some information with respect to some pedophiles that they had identified. I was both pleased and concerned--pleased that he said that Canada and Switzerland were the only two countries that immediately responded to their APB, their bulletin, that they sent out, and concerned that it didn't get picked up by everybody, that they didn't move. I think that's the trend you're seeing. You've seen where international pedophile rings have been taken down and the information is transported through a number of different countries. I think that's a measure of the cooperation. Certainly, in terms of the convention we have ratified in this area, this will be very helpful. Indeed, we did have a look in drafting the legislation to make sure it complies and that we will be in a position to cooperate with others.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you.

It is abundantly clear that cooperation with the United States has been established and has developed quite substantially. There are costs associated with all these investigations. Have you provided for additional resources and tools to help police officers combat this scourge of identity theft?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You know the provisions in the budget with respect to more police officers in this country. The budget that was just passed in the last few days has, among other things, $400 million for new police. That being said, we have ensured that there are greater resources for the federal police force, the RCMP. I think for the most part these resources are in place right across the country. For example, I think you mentioned Montreal. I talked to police agencies in Montreal. They made it very clear that one of the frustrating parts of this is that they identified people who are components of this, but they're stymied. They can't do anything about it because the exact activity is not now covered by the Criminal Code, even though that information gets shipped many times outside of the country.

I believe the resources are in place. The government has indicated its intention and demonstrated its commitment to making sure there are resources with the RCMP and more police officers right across this country. There are investigative units right now in this country that I think will welcome this legislation. They have the resources already. They just want the law to catch up with where they're at.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I would like to know what the government is doing, when it issues identification, to ensure security and oversight of the process. My question is based on the Auditor General's 2006 report, which found that the number of social insurance numbers, or SIN numbers, was far higher than Canadians would normally be expected to have been issued. Enacting legislation is all well and good, but the federal government itself has to set an example. I mentioned SIN numbers, but I could give other examples too, such as the theft of computers in Laval that provided information on 120,000 individuals. What steps is the federal government going to take in this regard?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's not specifically, of course, my responsibility as justice minister to regulate the security of government documents.

I would point out to you one of the interesting provisions recently announced in Parliament, and that's with respect to more security-sensitive passports and increasing the time for which passports need to be renewed from five to 10 years. It would be done, I believe, in the year 2011 on the basis that there would be increased security components incorporated into the passports.

I agree with you, Madam Freeman, on the security of all government documents. You'll notice one of the specific offences in this particular identity theft bill goes to the possession and trafficking of government-issued identification. My part of this scheme is to make sure that those who traffic, possess, and illegally acquire or otherwise interfere in one way or another with government ID are properly addressed in this particular legislation. You'll see there's a section that deals specifically with it, and it's something that I think is a step in the right direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Madam Freeman.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, you'll recall--and I'm not sure the minister is aware of this--that I was going to be given the opportunity to question the minister about the appointment of the director of public prosecutions. I assume this is the time when I would be allowed to do that, because I'm not likely to get a second round, given the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Well, Mr. Comartin, I can only caution you that we are dealing with identity theft and other related matters. Whether the minister will answer your question is up to the minister, but put it.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Does that mean I can go ahead?

Mr. Minister, were you advised that I would be asking questions about the appointment?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I wasn't advised that you'd be asking today. I heard that you had questions about that. Somebody indicated that to me. My understanding is that the acting director of public prosecutions will be here--is it tomorrow?--before the committee to answer questions, but go ahead.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

There were a set number of steps that had to be taken for this appointment of individuals. I think there's a total of 10 who were appointed. That process was taken and fulfilled. All of those appointments were made to the committee.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Which committee, now? The committee that advised with respect to the appointment?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

My understanding, Mr. Comartin, is that it was an all-party committee that made a number of recommendations to me. I believe you sat on that committee. I don't have that here before me, but I was advised that in the case of Mr. Saunders, he was an acceptable candidate for it, and in due course I made the decision.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. I want to be clear because I want it on the record. In addition to the one member from each party, there was a person named by the Federation of Law Societies, the four party members, the deputy minister of justice, the deputy minister from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and a person selected by the Attorney General.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I believe that sounds like a complete list, Mr. Comartin, but again....

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

The process was such that a number of names were given to the selection committee. That was done as well.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As far as I know, it was.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay, and from that list, the committee was to recommend no more than three names to you. Is that correct?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Exactly.