Justice Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Let me just make a comment on that, if I might. I can't really speak for a lack of resources that existed under the previous government, but I can tell you, and there is evidence, that I have increased resources to that, because again, the feedback that I have had is that it is a positive program in terms of helping particularly young aboriginal Canadians not re-offend. So there are more resources. When you talk to those court workers, I'm sure they'll say it's better than it was, and indeed it should be.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I think you should have that conversation, Minister.

We'll move on to legal aid. I know you've gone through federal-provincial meetings with your counterparts, and legal aid is one of those areas.... Especially with the types of bills that your government is bringing forward, more people are going to have to have defences. I see in the estimates here there are some supplementals for legal aid to the provinces and territories. I'd like to know the level of support. I know my own province of Ontario has had real problems with being able to keep pace with the criminal legal aid. But further to that, Minister, there are many, especially young families, women, and children, who have issues often around family law. There has not been civil legal aid in this country. It's an area that I think all governments would like to move towards. I just wonder where the talks and the discussions are and what action you will be pursuing in this area.

Thank you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You touched on a couple of areas of legal aid, and you quite correctly pointed out that requests for legal aid money are in the supplementary estimates that are provided to you.

I think you're talking about the area of civil legal aid. You're right. When I was here in the 1980s and the 1990s, the Government of Canada did have a specific line item. I think it was under what we would now refer to as the Canada social transfer. There was a specific line item with respect to civil legal aid and it was cancelled by the Government of Canada in 1995. Again, you were here at that time. Why it was cancelled, I'm not in the best position to know. You're probably in a better position yourself to know why the Government of Canada cancelled it.

Inasmuch as that was taken out as an item that was listed in the transfers to the provinces, I was quite interested in making sure that more money was being transferred to the provinces. So when my colleague, Mr. Flaherty, tabled his budget, and when I saw there was $63 billion more money going forward for the provinces, I was among those who were very pleased, and I congratulated him. I congratulated him, quite frankly, in my role as Minister of Justice because I thought, great, this is wonderful news; there is more money in the hands of the provinces, and certainly for the support of criminal and civil legal aid, they're in a better position.

If the provincial AGs didn't get any of that money for those, that's very disappointing. But I can tell you it was one of those things that certainly I looked for when Mr. Flaherty came out with that budget. When I saw those increases of transfers to the provinces, I was happy again, and happy in my role as justice minister, because I knew there would be more money for legal aid, civil and criminal, which I both support--

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Can you answer the question?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, it's here. We do make transfers, Mr. Chairman, and again, I congratulated my colleague.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I would like the answer to the question of whether you're supporting and your government is moving on civil and legal aid.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm sorry, what was that again?

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I would like you to answer the question of whether your government is going to support civil legal aid. You didn't answer that question in that answer.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, I support civil legal aid by means of the transfers that have been given to the provinces with the increased funding. It's my expectation that some of that must be going toward civil legal aid. It's one of the services I know about the provinces.

If you're asking me, you can make that suggestion to me that it go back to a line item that was cancelled in 1995. That may be a suggestion you want to make to me. If you're asking me if I support civil legal aid, I was delighted when I saw the increased money going to the provinces, because I knew they would be able to fund civil legal aid.

So, again, nobody was happier than I when I saw those provisions in the budget, Mr. Chairman, that's for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Barnes.

Madam Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good morning, Minister. Thank you for being here today.

I have a question concerning the National Drug Strategy. I'd like to know what percentage of the funds will be allocated to prevention and what percentage of these amounts will be held back for law enforcement. How will this be distributed among the provinces?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Freeman.

With respect to the money that was announced, two-thirds of it will go into prevention and treatment, and I think that is as it should be. One of the things that people most often ask me, of course, is on the enforcement side, on the penalty side, and of course that's quite reasonable.

Part of the national anti-drug strategy involves two of my other colleagues, Stockwell Day and of course the Minister of Health, Tony Clement. So, in my opinion, it has to be a comprehensive program any time we deal with young people or people getting involved with drugs. Therefore, that's why I'm pleased that most of the money--and that was new resources--are going to prevention and treatment. I believe that is as it should be.

I don't have a breakdown for you as to what each individual province may be getting, but again, I take your representations as well as those of Monsieur Ménard that it obviously has to be done on a fair basis across this country. Why? Because we know the problem exists. It's not a problem that's confined to the major cities. It's confined to all Canadian cities, small and large. So again, you can be assured that it will be done on a reasonable basis.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

An amount of $5.75 million is allocated to the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for victims of crime. Could you tell us what programs are offered by this new office?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It certainly is a program and an idea, in my opinion, whose time has come. You would be aware, in your experience as a member of Parliament, that there are many groups, organizations, and offices that advocate for different causes, in this community and across Canada.

I think the idea of having one office at the federal level—and I appreciate that there are provincial roles in this area, but having a federal office of an ombudsman that will deal with issues as they relate to victims' rights is a good idea. In addition, funding the victims' fund.... Again, it seemed to me when we had a look at this that it was overdue to put in more money, quite frankly, and that's the fund that would assist individuals, the people who are victims--for instance, getting to parole hearings. So having a wider range, as to how many individuals and how they get there...we've expanded that, but we also have this office.

It's a new office, as you know. We only made the announcement in the spring—I believe it was April when we came forward with this. I could be off the date a little bit. In any case, to get this up and running will take resources, and again, coupled with the victims' fund, I think these are both steps in the right direction.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Madam Freeman.

Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing here today.

Chair, I believe it was Mr. Dykstra who was next in order. Is that correct? I have my questions, but....

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

No, you are next in order.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Then I'll give my time to Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Minister, we've talked a lot this morning about youth justice and potential changes to the act. We certainly are looking forward to working through that. I guess what this all encompasses is really our focus on trying to help young people in this country and assist them with a hand up.

One of the other areas you've focused on—and this isn't necessarily a budget line item in the Ministry of Justice, but I know you take it seriously and have spent lot of time with Minister Day on it—is youth crime prevention. I know in the 2007 budget there was $16 million allocated directly to communities to provide programs, to deliver services, and to assist young people, not to build bureaucracies in Ottawa, not to build administrations, but to provide the community organizations with direct funding.

It has been an impressive number of announcements and programs that have been implemented over the last year, year and a half. I wonder if you could comment a bit on the success of that investment.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much. I would be pleased to do so.

I think everyone recognizes that you have to have a comprehensive approach whenever you deal with these problems. As I was saying to Madam Freeman with respect to the national anti-drug strategy, you have to take a holistic approach to this. It can't just be on the enforcement side. We've got to intervene, whether it's through education or working with troubled people. We've got to do something to help them either stay away from some of these problems or assist them when they start to get involved. Again, you hit it right on the head when you indicated that my colleague, Stockwell Day, and others are quite involved with some of these programs.

You should take some of the credit, Mr. Dykstra, for the announcement that was made in your riding of St. Catharines by the Citizens' Advisory Committee. It helps all the Niagara area. One of the things that impressed me is that this community-based program has been in business for almost 20 years. I think it goes back to about 1988. They've got a track record of helping people who get into trouble, or potentially get into trouble, with the law.

I was quite impressed when I joined you and our colleague for the announcement of $1.7 million over the next four years. Again, this kind of money can be accessed through community groups. I encourage others to have a look at this to take advantage of it, because it helps everybody.

Certainly I think that particular organization and their plans going forward are quite impressive. They indicated with that funding that they would be able to get directly involved with 80 young people who already have problems or potential problems with respect to the justice system. They would have the resources to work with them.

You would remember, Mr. Dykstra, that they indicated they would be able to reach out to hundreds of other individuals and get the message out to them that there is help and there are alternatives to getting involved, for instance, with gangs, drugs, or crimes of violence. It was a perfect fit, in my opinion, because you have an organization with a track record that is successful at what it is doing.

Should it have government support? I believe it should, of course. Again, I've made this point: we all pay the price when people fall between the cracks. To the extent we can work with groups, organizations, or, in the case of one of the programs, as Monsieur Ménard said, directly with the provinces and help to assist them in the programs they are using to reach out to young people and people coming into conflict with the law, this is money well spent. I believe it has to be a part of it.

I indicated to you a little while ago that most of the time people ask me about the enforcement side with respect to penalties, but I always indicate to them that there's more to it than that. Certainly I have been supportive, as you and your other colleagues have been, of our colleagues, both Stockwell Day and Tony Clement, in moving forward with these. You've been very supportive, as I am myself. I understand it has to be a holistic support.

I think you've summed up some of the challenges we have. I appreciate your support. I'll say it again: I appreciate your involvement. For you to get involved with that organization in the Niagara peninsula, you are improving the quality of life for the people of Niagara. You're helping to ensure those individuals lead successful lives, and in the end everybody will benefit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

It's always great to have you here, Mr. Minister.

An RCMP officer recently said to me about the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions that with the Conservative agenda, all these bills are going to lead to much more activity in that area. I'm wondering why the estimates do not reflect the significant increase that would be a measure of the success of your agenda, if it's going to be successful, to incarcerate all these criminals and bring them through all these new offences and new hearings. There's going to be a lot more cost. Why is that not reflected in the estimates? Does that mean you're not predicting your program will be successful?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm predicting that it will be successful if we get these things through Parliament, Mr. Bagnell.

Actually, the Department of Justice estimates, on which I'm here today, have now been hived off from the Director of Public Prosecutions. You will have a separate budget with respect to the DPP. We've been in the process for the last year, and this is the anniversary coming up, I think, in a couple of days with respect to the creation of that office, so I'm enthusiastic about it. I hope you'll get behind the agenda.

I note that in the legislative committee you indicated that a Liberal government would refer parts of the Tackling Violent Crime Act to the Supreme Court for a reference and that you'd take out other parts. I hope that's not the case, quite frankly. All of the Tackling Violent Crime Act, in my opinion, is very, very important. Quite frankly, some of it is overdue. Somebody said to me, you're trying to bring some of these laws into the 21st century. That bill that allows adult predators to molest 14- and 15-year-olds is out of the 19th century, never mind the 20th century. That thing should have been changed many, many years ago.

You can decide or not decide to support them. Of course, that's your privilege. I'm not sure what sections you would refer to the Supreme Court. I'm not sure what sections you'd take out. I was somewhat encouraged that at least at the report stage yesterday it looked to me like we were able to gather almost unanimous support.

I want it to move forward, yes, but to be a success, in answer to your question, we have to get these things passed. We have to get them as part of the laws of this country. All of them are needed and all of them help build safer communities and make our streets safer and stand up for victims of crime, which goes back to one of the other questions we had with respect to victims. We have to stand up for victims.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'll just point out the contradiction, which you didn't really sufficiently answer, that it also applies to legal aid, suggesting your program won't be a success in the near future.

My next question is this. Do you believe in the committee system in which we have the estimates and we have you here, and we appreciate your coming all the time as you faithfully do? Then we have witnesses and we would improve legislation based on the number of hearings of witnesses, etc. Do you believe in that system?