Justice Committee on Dec. 4th, 2007

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do I have time for two quick questions, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You have time for one.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, although you owed me a little time from a previous round.

I am trying to understand. When you mention the involvement of organized crime, do you mean, for example, Hells Angels, criminal biker gangs or street gangs, to your knowledge?

[Mark Yakabuski]

First, unfortunately, we have to be careful not to accuse any group. But we can say with complete certainty that major organized crime groups are involved in automobile theft in Canada.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

OK.

I will stop there, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Go ahead, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Yakabuski, there was an announcement last week by the government that it was going to exempt vehicles purchased in the United States and brought into Canada from the Transport Canada requirements for immobilizers. They needed to do that in order for the vehicles to be operational in Canada, because the standards for the immobilizers in the United States are lower than they are in Canada.

Has the insurance bureau taken a position with the government as to the...what's the word I'm looking for? It doesn't make a lot of sense to be doing that.

Second, can you tell me the difference between the standards in Canada and those in the United States?

[Mark Yakabuski]

I'm going to let Rick Dubin answer that because Rick is our specialist in auto theft and immobilizer items.

[Richard Dubin, Vice-President, Investigations, Insurance Bureau of Canada]

First of all, in the United States they have a choice. They can mark parts, where they put the vehicle identification number on different parts of the vehicle. It's only on a limited number of parts. Or they can choose to use some form of theft deterrent system similar to an electronic immobilizer. The position we took right from the start.... We were very successful, the Insurance Bureau of Canada, in working with car manufacturers, government representatives, and law enforcement to get over a dozen major car manufacturers to voluntarily install electronic immobilizers that met what we call the national standard of Canada.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Let me interrupt you there, because I don't think we had a full answer on this when Mr. Navdeep was asking. As I understand it, at this point in time the standards in Canada for the immobilizers are such that no one has been able to break that immobilizer up to this point.

[Richard Dubin]

Basically that's a correct statement. It is extremely difficult to defeat the camera.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is it difficult or impossible at this point?

[Richard Dubin]

We can't say it's never impossible because we happen to have organized crime that is very effective, over time, in finding ways to defeat new technologies, and it means--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's not my question, Mr. Dubin.

At this point in time, organized crime or anybody else has not figured out a way to beat those immobilizers. Is that correct?

[Richard Dubin]

We're not aware of organized crime at this point in time beating the standard that's been approved by Transport Canada, particularly with regard to the ULC-S338, which is the national standard of Canada. They added the European standard as another choice that they felt was comparable to the ULC-S338 Canadian standard.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But in fact our standards, Canadian standards, are higher than they are?

[Richard Dubin]

They modified their standards to meet a few of the attack tests and, when the system engages, to meet the national standard of Canada. So at this point in time, Transport Canada feels they are quite comparable.

[Mark Yakabuski]

The Canadian standards that we at the Insurance Bureau of Canada worked very hard on essentially have a shorter period of time by which you have to somehow get in between the immobilizer and the vehicle in order to compromise the anti-theft system.

[Richard Dubin]

That was modified.

[Mark Yakabuski]

Exactly.

The European standard has a slightly wider period of time, where it can be possibly potentially compromised, and that's why we pushed for a higher standard in Canada. We think it's the best in the world, and it's preventing the theft of vehicles. There's a lot more work to be done, because let's face it, as I said, you can put a car on a car bed; you don't have to worry about an immobilizer. You just drag that car away; that's not going to prevent the theft of the vehicle.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

If we accept Sergeant Shields' evidence that 95% of the thefts in B.C. were more the non-organized crime...it's going to make a big difference.

You're right, Mr. Yakabuski, our standards are in fact the highest in the world, and this compromise by the government is wrong, really.

Has the Insurance Bureau of Canada taken any position? The Province of Manitoba has now made it mandatory as of September 1 that you do not get insurance in that province unless you have the immobilizer on your vehicle, and they make provisions to compensate people for getting the immobilizers on. Have the Insurance Bureau of Canada and the major insurance companies in Canada taken a similar position that they will not write insurance for vehicles that do not have the immobilizer?

[Mark Yakabuski]

We do not take that position, and we will not take that position, because in a competitive market the consumer ought to be able to make the final choice as to where they should get coverage and what kind of coverage they should get, and the market should be responsive enough to provide that coverage. That's the position we take, so we would differ profoundly from any government monopoly insurance approach to this issue.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's probably why we have the monopoly insurance provisions in the country, Mr. Yakabuski.

No further questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

I have one question for Mr. Dubin. You are an investigator. What is the most common means of transport for a vehicle that will be sent overseas?

[Richard Dubin]

We've had a number of projects recently that got right into that. The vehicle could be stolen, let's say, in Ontario, put on rail, sent to either the port of Montreal or Halifax, and exported by container overseas to eastern Europe. They're going to West Africa, to Central America, to the Middle East.