Justice Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I call the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order. It being Thursday, December 6, 2007, the committee will continue its debate and discussion on Bill C-343, an act to amend the Criminal Code on motor vehicle theft.

Our witnesses appearing today, from the Canadian Automobile Dealers Association, are Mr. Thomas Donnelly, chairman, accompanied by Mr. Huw Williams of the public affairs section; from the Ontario Provincial Police, Mr. Scott Mills, detective staff sergeant unit commander, provincial auto theft team, organized crime section; from the North American Export Committee, Mr. Ben Jillett, investigator, provincial auto theft team; and finally, as an individual, Mr. Julian Roberts, professor, Centre for Criminology, Oxford University.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Thomas Donnelly, chairman of the Canadian Automobile Dealers Association, to begin.

[Thomas Donnelly, Chairman, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

My name is Tom Donnelly, and I am the chairman of the Canadian Automobile Dealers Association, also known as CADA. I'm accompanied today by Mr. Huw Williams, who is our public and government affairs director with CADA.

CADA is a national trade association that represents franchised dealerships of new cars and trucks. We have over 3,000 members and we are a presence in virtually every community in Canada. We employ approximately 140,000 people nationwide.

I'm especially pleased to be here today to talk about the important issue of vehicle theft, a problem too often forgotten until it directly affects you. In addition to my role as chairman of CADA, I also operate a medium-sized, family-run GM dealership here in Ottawa. Most dealerships in Canada are much like mine, family owned and operated, independent small businesses, not, as some may think, creatures of the manufacturers.

As you can imagine, when an expensive vehicle worth $30,000 or more is stolen from my lot, it has a real and direct effect on my business's bottom line. Most of my remarks will emphasize that by driving up the cost of purchasing and insuring a vehicle, such theft is a problem to more than just a person whose car has disappeared.

Additionally, too often such crimes are the results of organized crime networks and bring with them all the associated negatives of such organizations. This is especially true when looking at thefts from dealerships like those I represent.

It's important to talk a little bit about vehicle theft in Canada and take a quick look at some of the statistics. As Canadians, we often assume our peaceable kingdom has less crime than the United States. Usually this is a safe assumption, but when it comes to vehicle theft, we actually have the dubious distinction of beating our American neighbours' per capita vehicle theft rate by 26%.

Moreover, there are 56% more vehicle thefts in Canada than there were two decades ago. From 1991-2001 alone, we saw vehicle theft increase by 10%, despite a 38% decline in the rate of all other property crimes. Of those cars that are stolen, about 30% are never recovered and only 13% of the cases are ever solved by the police. Clearly, there's room for improvement.

On a personal note, I'll give you an example that happened to us in south Ottawa about 18 months ago. At about 4:30 on a Sunday morning our fences were cut, and four $60,000 diesel extended-cab pickup trucks were stolen in less than three or four minutes. When we discovered this on the Monday when we returned to our premises, we phoned to make a police report, and the police gave us our file number to contact our insurance company.

It's become a real issue with some of the police departments because it's not something they seem to be winning a war on. That's not a slight against police, it's just a problem with respect to the way things are today.

It's easy to think of a vehicle theft as an insurance problem, a hassle for those whose car or truck is stolen, with damages largely offset by the victim's insurance policy, yet with little direct effect on the population at large. Nothing could be further from the truth. While it is certainly true that the victim of a car theft is most directly harmed, society at large is certainly affected as well.

The Insurance Bureau of Canada estimates the cost to Canadian insurers, and by extension its policyholders, is more than $600 million a year, and that's just the cost to the insurance companies. According to studies, the number doubles to $1.2 billion when health care costs, policing, and out-of-pocket costs such as deductibles are added. These costs drive up the price of insurance for all policyholders, not just those unlucky enough to wake up to find their car is no longer in the driveway.

Costs to consumers from vehicle theft are not limited to insurance policyholders but are also found in the sticker prices of new vehicles. Theft of merchandise is an issue for all retailers, be they selling groceries, general merchandise, or cars, and as such theft hurts retailers' bottom lines, it ultimately only serves to increase the costs to the paying customer.

Unlike us, other retailers are rarely targeted with specific shopping lists of goods to be stolen. In separate studies, Statistics Canada and the RCMP found an increasing involvement from organized crime groups in the theft of specific vehicles. Specific makes, models, and years are targeted. They're stolen and in less than 48 hours they're in a shipping container bound from ports like Halifax, Vancouver, and Montreal for eastern Europe, China, and elsewhere. Other models are often stolen to be chopped for parts, often sold back to unsuspecting consumers as genuine merchandise.

This sort of theft is a large reason why 41% of the vehicles stolen from dealerships are never recovered, which is almost three times higher than that of thefts from parking lots and four times higher than that for thefts from the street.

Numbers like these are part of the reason why auto theft and auto-related claims are, with the exception of the odd catastrophic loss, the highest loss experienced for insurers. This has also meant that fewer and fewer companies are willing to offer the sorts of garage policies that dealerships need. This has left little in the way of competition, leaving dealers to pay exorbitant premiums, beyond even what could be expected because of what the risk is.

Dealers are trying to do their part. We've tried to reduce thefts in a number of different ways, such as adding floodlights, fencing, hiring night-time security guards, but such measures are still imperfect. The nature of a dealership is that millions of dollars of assets sit in a parking lot on display exposed to potential thieves. As thorough as we are with security, we are still dealing with a complex criminal network that reaps substantial financial benefits from stealing cars. Even if we could turn every dealership into the urban equivalent of Fort Knox, the tenacity of organized crime knows no bounds in circumventing our precautions.

It is imperative that the government act to curtail such thefts. Certainly they harm business and consumers through added security and insurance costs, but also the profits of the stolen car networks finance additional criminal activities in organized crime--things like the trade of drugs, prostitution, murder-for-hire, etc. While business dealerships across Canada would benefit if thefts from car dealerships were stopped tomorrow, it would even be of greater benefit to Canadians by hindering such criminal activities.

One of the strongest parts of this legislation is that it creates a separate crime for the theft of a vehicle. As I am sure the committee is familiar, the status quo is that if someone is charged with stealing a car they're actually charged with theft over or under, as appropriate, $5,000.

On every practical level a stolen car is not the same as other stolen property. Unlike televisions, china, jewellery, etc., cars are essential to individuals for mobility and independence. Cars allow a family to take their kids to school, the doctor, and the hockey rink. It is a car that gets people to work, or to the ski hill or beach on the weekend. These functions aren't dependent on the cost of the vehicle and are taken away just as much when a $30,000 car is stolen as when a $3,000 car is stolen. That's why vehicle theft can't be measured by the value of the asset, as the nature of the harm is not really dependent on the value in the same way that other property is.

Some parts of government already treat vehicle theft differently. Statistics Canada keeps a separate record for cars stolen, and the average person on the street would likely feel the same. It would seem that for the last instance of a stolen car being treated as just a property crime in the Criminal Code, this legislation would fix that.

The legislation brings important focus on the issue of vehicle theft, a problem that adds cost to consumers and business and fuels organized crime in addition to the individual effects on those who actually have their cars stolen. Importantly, it makes stealing a car its own offence and better reflects the function of a car, which often belies its strict monetary value as property.

While I'm sure that there will be some discussion about the length of the proposed sentences as well as the inclusion of so-called mandatory minimums, I think it is important to stress that this legislation offers real improvements over existing legislation and can only serve as an added deterrent for a problem that has only gotten larger as other crimes have declined.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

Next on our list, from the Ontario Provincial Police, we have Detective Staff Sergeant Scott Mills.

[Detective Staff Sergeant Scott Mills, Unit Commander, Provincial Auto Theft Team, Organized Crime Section, Ontario Provincial Police]

Good morning, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm attending today representing the Ontario Provincial Police as a designate for Commissioner Julian Fantino. In addition, I'm attending as a unit commander of the OPP provincial auto theft team, which is under our organized crime section of the investigation bureau.

The mission of the provincial auto theft team is to provide leadership, expertise, and coordination to dedicated investigations targeting organized crime in the enterprise crime of auto theft. The provincial auto theft team with the OPP as a lead agency is mandated to investigate organized crime as it relates to enterprise vehicle theft by gathering intelligence, identifying the persons and groups involved, and taking appropriate action. Most of our investigations are multi-jurisdictional, multidisciplinary, interprovincial and international, which mirrors the organized crime sophistication involved in this type of theft.

The provincial auto theft team is partnered with most major Ontario police agencies, various government regulatory bodies, and the Insurance Bureau of Canada. The provincial auto theft team welcomes this opportunity to appear before this committee on Bill C-343.Our goal is to work with elected officials to bring about reforms that enhance the public safety and security of our communities.

The safety and security of our communities requires our dedication and determination, and I am dedicated and determined to enlighten all those who will listen to the fact that auto theft is not merely a property crime, but that auto theft and the possession of a stolen vehicle in the hands of a fleeing criminal or an inexperienced driver-offender presents a grave danger to the public. This year alone, personally, my provincial auto theft unit has experienced the death of a 15-year-old youth who fled the police and died behind the wheel of a stolen car. We've had three instances of when desperate auto thieves have attacked or driven directly at police officers, resulting in the officers discharging their firearms, and there have been countless accidents as a result of fleeing stolen vehicles. The danger of this death and violence spilling out onto the innocent public is a reality.

I'm just going to review some national statistics. In 2006 approximately 160,000 vehicles were stolen in Canada, at a cost of well over $1 billion. I'll mirror an earlier statement that the theft rate in Canada is 26% higher per capita than in the United States. The national vehicle theft rate has remained relatively stable in Ontario, but the recovery rate has steadily declined in Ontario. Saskatchewan and British Columbia have the highest theft rates per capita in the country, and the average person arrested in British Columbia and Saskatchewan for auto theft is 14 years of age.

Approximately 54,000 vehicles are stolen annually in Ontario, ranking us fourth overall in North America behind California, with a population of 30 million; Texas, with a population of 21 million; and Florida, with a population of 19 million. In 1990, 90% of all vehicles that were stolen in Ontario were recovered. Today only 60% of the vehicles stolen are recovered. The recovery rates in Ontario are influenced by a number of factors, the largest of which is organized crime involvement.

Vehicles that are not recovered do not simply disappear. Vehicles not recovered are exported to another jurisdiction, where they're no longer sought by the police. They are assigned a fraudulent identity, or what we call “revinning”, and then sold to the unsuspecting public, or they are what we call chopped in a chop shop and the parts are sold on the grey market as legitimate.

Organized enterprise auto theft by professional auto thieves represents millions of dollars in profits for organized crime groups in Ontario. The average person arrested by the provincial auto theft team, which is my unit focused on organized crime, is 34 years of age. Ontario, where the recovery rate has fallen to 60%, is now faced with organized crime groups employing professional thieves who are heavily involved in auto theft as a means to generate revenue. B.C. and Saskatchewan are primarily faced with amateur thieves involved in transportation thefts, or joy riding, and still enjoy a 90% and 94% recovery rate.

Both the professional and the amateur thief present a clear and present danger to the community, leading police on high-speed pursuits, often committing these crimes while high on drugs.

The experience of the provincial auto theft team reveals that presently the penalties in Ontario range from probation to light fines. Repeat offenders face primarily 30 days in custody. We've had occasion to talk to very prolific auto thieves in Ontario, members of organized crime, and they've boasted about not only stealing thousands of vehicles annually, but also that they've been arrested and convicted numerous times and are still active and receiving light penalties.

The provincial auto theft team has conducted surveillance during recent projects. One project, Project Eagle, was concluded in 2006, and we watched thieves exit the courtroom after being convicted for stealing a vehicle and steal another vehicle within an hour.

The provincial auto theft team and the Ontario Provincial Police support this initiative to deter auto theft and make our communities safer. The provincial auto theft team and the Ontario Provincial Police would welcome further changes to the Criminal Code of Canada, similar to those in Bill C-343, that would include possession of a stolen vehicle as a separate offence. The provincial auto theft team would also support legislation that would see any vehicle whose vehicle identification number or any vessel whose hull identification number has been obliterated or removed to be forfeit to the crown.

The provincial auto theft team's focus is on combatting organized crime and those who profit from this enterprise auto theft trade. The provincial auto theft team would support legislation that targets organized crime and creates specific offences for those who engage in the auto theft trade by trafficking in stolen vehicles or parts.

I'd like to quote from Commissioner Julian Fantino in a letter he wrote to the clerk of this committee:

This legislation would make auto theft a separate offence under the Criminal Code and would ensure mandatory minimum jail sentences, particularly for third or subsequent offences. As you're aware, motor vehicle theft costs Canadians in excess of $1 billion annually and continues to threaten the safety and security of our communities and law enforcement personnel. Auto theft is not a victimless crime. It involves home invasions, break and enters, and other crimes that support organized crime. This past summer auto theft resulted in the on-duty death of Constable Robert Plunkett of the York Regional Police.

Auto theft is not a victimless crime. Auto theft must be treated as a serious threat to public safety and viewed as such. The proposals in Bill C-343 represent proactive measures to protect the public. The stand-alone offence of auto theft more accurately represents the seriousness and the sophistication of the auto theft situation than the simple offence of possession of stolen property.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you very much, Detective Staff Sergeant.

Now we have the North American Export Committee, Mr. Ben Jillett. You have the floor, sir.

[Ben Jillett, Investigator, Provincial Auto Theft Team, North American Export Committee]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to address this committee.

I am a director for the North American Export Committee, which is made up of various persons from law enforcement and the private sector in Canada, the United States, and Mexico. The mission of the North American Export Committee is to bring together those entities that share a common goal of combatting the exportation of stolen vehicles.

In addition to being a director with the North American Export Committee, I'm an investigator with the Insurance Bureau of Canada in the auto theft services and I'm also seconded to the provincial auto theft team in Toronto, working under Scott Mills. The team is headed up by the Ontario Provincial Police. I am also a retired member of the RCMP and served for 31 years.

As part of my work investigating exported stolen vehicles, I have spent a great deal of time overseas in the repatriation of stolen vehicles. As a matter of fact, in June of this year I presented to the FBI training seminar in Accra, Ghana, about North American stolen vehicles being exported to the west coast of Africa.

The North American Export Committee fully supports Bill C-343 and asks that all members of Parliament approve it in its current form.

More and more, auto theft in Canada is being committed by organized, for-profit crime rings. This is evidenced, in part, by the significant reduction in the recovery of stolen vehicles. The criminals involved in these rings are dangerous repeat offenders. Bill C-343 addresses the increased severity of the problem by making auto theft a separate offence under the Criminal Code, rather than treating it as a simple property crime.

Also, Bill C-343 proposes mandatory minimum sentences, but does so only for third and subsequent offences. The export committee views this as a very reasonable use of mandatory minimum sentencing, as it targets only repeat offenders.

Auto theft is a very expensive crime. As we heard, it's costing Canadians $1.2 billion a year, and in 2006 there were 159,000 vehicles stolen in Canada. Even more troubling, though, is the human cost of auto theft. A study by the National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft found that between 1999 and 2001, 81 Canadians were killed and 127 were seriously injured because of auto theft. There is no question that auto theft is a threat to the safety and security of all Canadians.

I would like to share with you a few cases that I am involved in that demonstrate the scope and magnitude of organized crime in auto theft in Canada.

First is Project Ghana, part two. ln January and February of this year, the Ontario provincial auto theft team recovered 50 high-end stolen vehicles that were destined for West Africa. These vehicles were valued at more than $2 million. While those cars were recovered before they left Canada, many others still made it out. Approximately 65 vehicles were found to be stolen from Canada and illegally shipped to Ghana. Most of the vehicles shipped to Ghana had originally been shipped from the ports of Halifax and Montreal.

Ghana and Nigeria in western Africa are major importers of Canadian stolen vehicles, second only to the United States. Organized West African car theft rings are increasing in number, and so is the volume of vehicles stolen by them. It is important to note that the Canada Border Services Agency claims they lack the jurisdiction to identify and seize stolen vehicles at the ports, so they are not doing this job of seizing vehicles at the export levels in Canada.

Next is Project X5. ln August of this year, police arrested 19 individuals involved in operating five auto theft rings in various parts of Ontario. They recovered 14 high-end stolen vehicles worth $1.5 million, as well as $55,000 in cash and more than $800,000 in drugs. The suspects also had false Ontario driver's licences, false Canadian citizenship cards, and a host of bogus social insurance numbers. The cars and the SUVs in this case were destined for West Africa and the Middle East.

Next is Project Eastbound, which was an interprovincial auto theft ring. In October 2006 law enforcement from Ontario arrested and charged 14 individuals relating to the fraudulent registration and sale of stolen vehicles to unsuspecting consumers in Quebec and New Brunswick.

This was a 14-month investigation targeting a group that was involved in the cloning and revinning of stolen vehicles.

In July 2006, members of the New Brunswick RCMP, in conjunction with the Ontario provincial auto theft team, located and seized 24 more stolen vehicles that had been identified as cloned or with false vehicle identification numbers.

In August 2006, 33 search warrants were executed in Quebec by the Ontario provincial auto theft team, with the assistance of members of the Sûreté du Québec, the Montreal Police Service, and various police agencies in the province of Quebec. At this time, a total of 26 vehicles identified as cloned or with false vehicle identification numbers were located and seized. The seized vehicles were all reported stolen between 2005 and 2006, with a value of over $6 million.

In Toronto we had a major crime task force labelled “Project Globe”. This was started in 2005 by the Toronto Police Service. Initially they had identified 75 vehicles that were unlawfully obtained by a Middle Eastern crime group. They had been stolen from various financial institutions through the use of deceptive financing. Once obtained, these vehicles were placed into containers and shipped to the Middle East, namely to Dubai, Jordan, and the United Arab Emirates. Some of these vehicles were later reported stolen here in Canada, and there was an investigation; this is called “theft by conversion”. The total value of these vehicles was over $5 million.

The problem is escalating, and we are currently seeking approximately 100 high-end vehicles that have been shipped to the Middle East from Canada within the last six to eight months.

Organizations involved are known to be involved in other criminal activity, including terrorism, drug trafficking, robbery, carjacking, identity theft and fraud, and other criminal offences.

In July 2007 we were notified by the Hong Kong police that a number of luxury stolen vehicles from Canada, including a Ferrari, four Hummers, a BMW, and Cadillac Escalades, worth over $500,000, had been seized and recovered. They arrested two Indian males carrying Indian passports in Hong Kong, and they had connections leading back to individuals in Canada.

In August 2006 I was contacted by Interpol from Lyon, France, who advised that Cambodian customs had just seized 12 luxury vehicles that had all been stolen from Canada, most of which came from the province of Quebec. These vehicles were packed in shipping containers labelled to contain aluminum doors and windows, along with clothing. These vehicles were seized at a port in Cambodia.

In conclusion, I would like to stress that various investigations have strongly suggested that auto theft is a source of funds for terrorist groups. This has also been supported by informants and was noted in an RCMP criminal intelligence report from November 2001. The same RCMP report went on to say that high-ranking Hezbollah leaders may be driving around Lebanon in cars stolen in Canada by Middle Eastern organized crime groups.

Thieves are not constrained by political borders. Auto theft has proven to be a very lucrative business operating all across this country, the United States, and overseas as well.

The North American Export Committee is certain that Bill C-343 will give law enforcement the tools it needs to properly fight the battle against organized auto theft. As a director with the North American Export Committee, I urge you all to support Bill C-343 in its current form and send it to the House of Commons for third reading and approval.

Thank you for your time, and I'm looking forward to answering any of your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Jillett. That was some very significant information you passed to us.

Now we'll hear from Mr. Julian Roberts, a professor from the Centre for Criminology at the University of Oxford. Sir, you have the floor.

[Dr. Julian Roberts, Professor, Centre for Criminology, Oxford University, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I've been working in the area of sentencing since about 1984, when I worked for the Canadian Sentencing Commission. I think I have appeared nine previous times before this committee on this issue. If you get a mug for your tenth appearance, I'd like to take it home.

It's obviously a serious problem, there's no doubt about that, and these statistics make it clear. But my question would be, what can sentencing do about this problem? In the testimony yesterday there were a number of obviously interesting proposals: immobilizers, better police surveillance, and so on and so forth.

With respect to sentencing, it's a little bit more complicated, and the role of sentencing as a deterrent force is significantly limited. One of the witnesses a couple of days ago said that Canadians count on parliamentarians to take action about the problems that matter to them, but your job's more complicated than that. You need to take action with respect for the legal traditions of this great country, and within the statutory sentencing framework that was created in 1996 by Bill C-41.

Before you create a fairly stiff—and I'll talk about the level of penalty—mandatory minimum sentence, you need to recall that the role of Parliament is to create a statutory framework to identify important statutory aggravating factors and mitigating factors if necessary, to prescribe mandatory sentences where appropriate, but not necessarily to introduce a minimum penalty every time an offence seems to take your attention.

The Bill C-41 I refer to in 1996 codified the principle of proportionality in sentencing, section 718.1 of the Criminal Code. That principle, of course, as you well know, articulates a guide to sentencing courts, which is that the severity of the sentence should reflect the seriousness of the crime and the offender's level of culpability for the offence. You can't determine that in advance. You can't know in advance the offender's level of culpability; it's something that has to be determined by a judge. A mandatory minimum sentence takes away that judicial discretion.

I know a lot of people are quite skeptical of judicial discretion, but my submission to you would be you shouldn't be so skeptical or afraid of it.

How does this bill violate proportionality? It also violates restraint, by the way, but I probably won't have time to talk about that. By creating a sentence—and we'll look at the third conviction—of at least two years, it effectively creates a disproportionate punishment. You may say, how can it be disproportionate? It's a very serious crime. It is, but go to the sentencing statistics. I think you should take a good, hard look at those. I don't think you should get your sentencing statistics from what witnesses say or what you've heard from auto thieves; get them from Statistics Canada.

I'll give you one statistic here that is quite compelling: 95% of sentences of custody in this country are provincial terms, two years less one day and below. By the way, clause 5 indicates that the third conviction can be part of the same criminal event. So if a guy grabs three Toyota Corollas in one evening he's subject to this provision and to a penalty of at least two years pen time for stealing three cars that could be quite modest cars, and I think that's a disproportionate sentence.

If you think about it, the 5% of offenders in this country are the offenders who have committed the most serious crimes. I'll just ask you whether you want somebody who's stolen three cars—serious though that is—to be among the top 5%. We're talking about aggravated sexual assault, manslaughter, and so on. I think it's disproportionate.

The second thing is of course it's a three strikes law. It's baseball sentencing. What that means is you're promoting the use of previous convictions. The reason why the guy gets pen time, at least two years, two years or more, for stealing those three Toyota Corollas is not because the third Corolla is such a serious theft; it's because it's his third infraction. That's promoting the use of previous convictions way above the seriousness of the incident crime.

So he's stolen a car and he goes to the penitentiary for that because he has had two previous convictions for stealing cars. What you're doing there, of course, is promoting the offender's criminal record way above the seriousness of the crime, and that's a violation of proportionality.

I'll just say a couple of last words and then conclude, because I'm running a little late.

If having these mandatory sentences were to create a great crime prevention effect; if you had all these potential offenders thinking “My God, there's a mandatory penalty now, so let's think about robbing convenience stores instead”, there might be more support for it. But if you're talking about an average age of 14—and we just heard the statistic—for people stealing cars, you have a lot of young people stealing cars, and they're not the most reflective individuals, not the most forward-thinking individuals. They're going to steal cars.

Particularly, by the way, if they're high on drugs they're going to do it without contemplating whether it's six months or eighteen months. You could probably have a mandatory minimum sentence of ten years for the third conviction; it's not going to stop those guys, because they're not going to think about it.

They may be more concerned if they think they're going to get caught. So if there's a police presence around, or immobilizers and alarms, that will deter them, because then it's clear to them that there are some consequences. But they don't think rationally, the way we do. I think there'll be little or no crime-preventive effect.

You may say it's not going to have a great impact upon the number of vehicles stolen, but what's the matter with it? What is the matter with it is, as I say, that it's an unwelcome parliamentary intrusion into the exercise of discretion by a sentencing court, and I think that's regrettable.

I would encourage you to go back to the drawing board to take a look at the sentencing statistics. If they show, by the way, that a car thief with ten previous convictions was getting probation, I'd be a little bit more concerned and would want to do something about the sentencing regime. But I'd need to see the statistics.

The last point I'd make is just that we should of course recall to our minds that committing a crime in conjunction with an organized crime organization is a statutory aggravating factor and will or should result in a harsher penalty anyway. I would encourage you to have a little more faith in the judiciary.

I'm not very favourable to the sentencing proposals in this bill.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

Just as a point of clarification for the committee and for me, sitting here as a former investigator, Mr. Jillet, you talked about a Project Eastbound, a 14-month investigation. How many police officers were involved in that investigation?

[Ben Jillett]

They were numerous, from Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick. I'd be guessing at the numbers, but I would say probably about 60.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

That's 60 over 14 months?

[Ben Jillett]

Yes, in the various provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Is that typical of these projects?

[Ben Jillett]

No, that's an extremely large one. Normally they're not that big, with so many police forces involved. A lot of it is a few investigators from Ontario who would partner up with other investigators across Canada.

In this case, we had so many locations in Quebec and New Brunswick, especially for searches, that we needed a lot of people involved in those.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

I have another question on penalties after numerous convictions—about what the sentencing would be. But I'll leave that for a future opportunity and turn to Mr. Boshcoff.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be splitting my time with the honourable member for Scarborough—Rouge River.

When we talk about what I guess you could almost say is an epidemic, it would seem to me that society sees it going on. In spite of awareness campaigns and police publicity and all these types of things, though, there is some measure of individual responsibility that seems to be lacking, whether people leave their doors unlocked, whether they keep their keys in the car, or whether they leave their air conditioning going in hot times or their engines running in the winter. In this neck of the woods, people go out, start their cars, or do it some other way. We're almost luring people to say, “Take me”.

From my experience on the police services board, when we decided that we would try to do something in our community about this, there was a huge outcry. People felt we were being unnecessarily stringent, that we were putting undue pressure on them. They felt it was a right for them to be able to leave their cars running, or that if they parked at a convenience store and ran in, they shouldn't be assigned a penalty for doing that because that's how people live, as opposed to shutting the car off and locking the door so that they wouldn't make it so susceptible.

That's my first question, and perhaps a couple of you may want to respond to that. And then try to identify that aspect of individual responsibility, versus the hitting of the car lots and putting the cars on trailers. Wouldn't you say those are two different categories of theft?

[Detective Staff Sergeant Scott Mills]

If I can respond, there are two types of auto theft, and I think we have to clarify that. There is the amateur auto theft, which is opportunistic, and then there's the professional auto theft, which is organized crime.

Public awareness may help target hardening, to prevent against the opportunistic youth or amateur auto thief, but in the organized crime world there is a market for stolen vehicles and they are very target-specific on makes and models. Regardless of the target hardening or diligence of the driver, there is a market abroad and domestically for these vehicles. It's very, very hard to deter them by street-proofing, if you will, your vehicle.

[Huw Williams, Director, Public Affairs, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association]

I'll just add, Mr. Boshcoff, that one of the challenges dealers face is that they put up a lot of barriers to protect the vehicles, they go through extensive processes to keep their keys in place, but once they've built those kinds of hard protective barriers and hard securities, the thieves come up with identity theft and they take the car under false pretenses—under a leasing agreement, for example—under the wrong identity. They then ship the car out of the country. So while they think they've done a legitimate transaction, it's been sold the other way.

There is a recognition amongst dealers across the country that the dealers being targeted are very much being targeted by the professional thief that Mr. Mills refers to, and by organized crime. And there is a different category of amateur thief who is out there targeting the easy opportunities to jump in people's cars. So there is definitely a distinction that has to be drawn there in the marketplace generally.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Would there be a percentage of what you'd say is amateur and professional-league? In terms of the opportunistic stuff, is it 10% or 15%, or is it 30% or...?

[Huw Williams]

I'll leave it for the police to give a version of it, but I can say in the dealership case that there are very few. A very small percentage of vehicles are stolen from a dealership by a joyrider or in an amateur kind of scenario, because the barriers are just harder to get through.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

But what about leaving it out there in your driveway, and that type of stuff?

[Detective Staff Sergeant Scott Mills]

Percentage-wise, it varies so much from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I can quote B.C. because I've recently had some conversations with the RCMP about Operation Impact. About 90% of their vehicles that are stolen are recovered. That's attributed to your amateur auto theft. They're not stealing the cars for the cars themselves; they're stealing them for transportation or things of that nature.

In Ontario, our recovery rate is only 60%. If a vehicle is stolen from your driveway with the keys in it, it's usually found dumped somewhere else. That's a recovered automobile, and that's the work of amateurs. The remaining 40% that disappear would be the work of organized crime. So in Ontario I'd give you the split of 60-40.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Lee, if you want to finish off the time, you have probably enough time for one question.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Sure.

There are two pieces of information I want to clarify. I think I'm correct in saying that, Mr. Donnelly, you referred to a 14% solved rate, or recovery rate, or clearance rate. Could you put the right word on that for me? It was 14%, I know.