Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was car.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you, Mr. Masse.
One hundred and four level four offenders, 42 level three offenders, and you're monitoring them how closely?
1:15 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
Through probation services; they do curfew checks. I can tell you our city police service recently adopted the CrimeStat or Comstat model for monitoring of crimes this year. It was implemented in February, and stolen autos are the topic of almost every single meeting. We have six uniform divisions throughout the city, and each one of those divisions has six platoons of officers. Each platoon has a stolen auto representative selected from that group of officers, and they liaise with our stolen auto unit.
They are given regular updates on who lives in their areas that they can conduct curfew checks on, because we operate on two shifts, whereas they work on three, and through the night. They do curfew checks on a regular basis. We run projects where they come on days when there's extra manpower, so it's quite a concentrated effort, as well as probation services doing their own curfew checks and so on.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I can see that it would be quite labour-intensive. I would assume there would be substantial manpower assigned through whatever shift there might be, just to concentrate on those 146 individuals.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I certainly appreciate the testimony that I've heard here. I wanted to ask some questions of the previous witnesses. I'm not sure if you were here to hear some of the testimony that was given. If you were here, my question is more along the lines of law enforcement.
My understanding is that there are clauses in the Criminal Code that deal with joyriding. Is that correct?
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
The previous “theft over $5,000” and “theft under $5,000” clauses also exist. This is simply an addition or an augmentation that specifically lays out theft of motor vehicles.
A lot has been said here. If I go back to a comment that was made by Professor Roberts while he was here, he said that basically the addition of this amendment into the Criminal Code levels a shotgun at everybody. I don't necessarily agree with that comment, and I'm looking for some comment from you.
When we still have the joyriding clause, when we still have the “theft over” and “theft under” clauses, would it be reasonable to assume that police investigators and crown prosecutors wouldn't have the knowledge? It's clear from the testimony that you've given here. When you've categorized repeat offenders as level four and level three, is it realistic to think that law enforcement agencies and crown prosecutors are simply going to throw the maximum charge at everybody who is in a car that doesn't belong to them?
I'm just wondering. There seems to be a little bit of fearmongering around the committee that everybody who takes a car, whether they're 14 years old, 18 years old, or 28 years old, is going to somehow be locked up for two years. I just don't think that's what's going to happen.
Can you elaborate on what currently happens as far as your cooperation with the crown prosecutors is concerned, on determining how some of these young people are dealt with especially? This charge would only apply to somebody over 18, because the Youth Criminal Justice Act would kick in. What effect would this law, if passed in its current form, actually have on the young people who take cars, especially when 95% of them turn back up again? Does that not constitute joyriding, in the sense that it's not a permanent attempt to deprive people of their property?
1:15 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
The joyriding has been used a lot for the passengers in vehicles as well, as opposed to the drivers or those who actually stole the vehicle.
I believe I made mention in my submission that I would hope this could somehow transcend the boundaries of the YCJA, because that is our problem. Again, I believe the mandatory minimum for the first offence was a potential of three months and a fine, for a second offence conviction it was six months and a larger fine, and so on to the maximum of three. I would hope that would....
It's like progressive discipline in a number of other fields. You start off with the lesser amount, and hopefully that's viewed as a deterrent as well for those who are inclined to become involved in this type of behaviour.
Am I on track?
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
I think so.
What I'm trying to get at here is that not everybody—and certainly when you're dealing with a young person who's in the wrong place at the wrong time, hanging out with some of their friends—is going to go to jail for two years if they happen to go out on a night when they're riding around in a car that one of their buddies took because he found an opportunity. The window was down, the keys were in the ignition, and they thought they'd go have some fun. As wrong as that is and as dangerous as it is—I'm not trying to minimize it—there is certainly a different approach.
The intent of this bill is that of a start to tackle the more serious problem, which is organized crime and the theft of motor vehicles, the shipping of motor vehicles overseas, the creation of all of these black markets and so on, and the huge costs to society in all forms, whether it be the cost of human lives in various events, the cost of insurance, and so on.
As the bill sits in its current form, I've heard some testimony that leads me to believe there's some fear or some uncertainty that everybody who takes a car is going to end up in jail. I don't see that being the case, but I just wanted to get your perspective on that. I certainly think it provides an opportunity to lock up the people who are the repeat offenders and those who are the most dangerous elements involved in car theft. I just wanted to get some clarification, from your perspective on the law enforcement side, of how you work with the crown prosecutors in determining that.
I was very concerned with the testimony that was given by the previous witnesses in the previous round. They basically said this is going to level a shotgun at everybody across the board. I see this as being just a further tool in a bag of some already lesser tools that are already there, and I'm wondering if that's your assessment.
1:20 p.m.
Executive Director, National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft
I'd like to comment on that.
I've been involved with setting up the suppression program in Winnipeg. I was also involved in the suppression program in Regina, Calgary, and the lower mainland in Vancouver.
The suppression programs are there to identify chronic repeat offenders. All these cities have specific intervention programs particularly for first-time offenders, for these young people when they first become involved. It's not an automatic lock-up. They're put on probation services, and they're monitored very closely.
The program first started in Regina; then it carried through to Winnipeg, then Calgary, and now it's in Vancouver.
Does that help?
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Mr. Van Kesteren had a question. There's a little bit of time left.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
I'll be very quick on just a couple of things.
I'm a little confused, Mr. Poole, on the 744 arrests from January to November. Is that in Winnipeg?
1:20 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
That's in Winnipeg alone right now.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
I don't quite understand. You show 467. Of course, December isn't.... Why would there be more arrests than cars stolen? I don't quite understand.
1:20 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
We've had 5,135 stolen vehicles this year so far.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
My last question is, since the recovery rate for car thefts is 95%, is it fair to assume then that there may be literally hundreds more level four offenders if you're not catching the 95% who just drop them off? Level four would be the repeat offenders, I take it.
1:20 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
Right, but the 5% not recovered we're attributing to the potentially organized crime or those selling vehicles for profit.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
It says “Winnipeg's stolen vehicle recovery”. So you recover 95%, which means a lot of people just drop them off, and you don't catch them. Is it conceivable that the number of level fours could be much higher because you're not catching these people? They just drop them off, and they do this over and over again and never get caught?
1:20 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
It could be that, and there may be that many vehicles attributed to the 104 people. Again, we're getting them for some of the vehicles, but certainly not all of the vehicles they're involved with. As I said regarding the group that was training on the high-end Chevy products, there were 39 in 12 days prior to their arrest, and then only four after that. There may have been even more.
1:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.
I have one final question to both Mr. Poole and Mr. Ward, and then I believe that will conclude our presentation.
Let's say there is a series of vehicles stolen in the course of one evening, and an offender is taken in--and I don't care if he's a young offender or an adult--and he goes to court. We'll say there are three vehicles stolen, and he's apprehended. Is it considered by the court one offence, three offences, or what? How does the sentencing occur? That's the first question.
The second question is when that individual is sentenced and six months later he's picked up with another vehicle, is it automatic that the penalty assigned to him in court will be much more severe than that for the first time?
Mr. Poole.
