Justice Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chair, I acknowledge that Mr. Moore, who I'm told was recently married and I congratulate him, is engaged in a game of high seduction.

Unfortunately, he will acknowledge, as we do, that having a minimum sentence on a third offence changes nothing. Our thinking is that we are unsympathetic to that because we don't believe we should be administering justice by means of minimum sentences.

On the contrary, even this morning, I didn't hear, in the exchange that we had with Mr. Roberts... Incidentally, I thank the clerk for working very hard so that he could leave England, where he is settled.

Mr. Chair, I don't believe—and I'm going to check with my colleague and our leader's office—that we'll be in a position to support this amendment. However, I invite him not to make this a personal matter; he is very much a friend of mine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Lee, did you have some comments?

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I appreciate the efforts of the government members to try to craft something that might have achieved a consensus. But I think, as Mr. Ménard has pointed out, that there is a gap in understanding or intention here. In principle, the use of mandatory minimums, in the view of our party--and likely some other members here--ought to be restricted to the barest minimum--no pun intended--and as a result, we couldn't support adoption of mandatory minimums in this auto theft section.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

The gap seems to be between government and opposition.

Mr. Moore, do you have any further comment?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I'm not going to take it personally, so I'm not hurt. But this is a genuine effort to preserve the intent of the drafter of the bill while addressing, I think, almost every concern that I heard raised by opposition members. The only minimum in this bill as amended would be on a third conviction, a six-month minimum. I think that's entirely reasonable. If the opposition's position is that a six-month minimum on a third conviction for auto theft is not reasonable, I think that is beyond reasonable.

We are making an effort to try to have some consensus. I listened to the questions on Tuesday. We did address it on the first and second penalty. I did hear that we felt that auto theft should be included, and that this bill preserves it as a distinct offence under the Criminal Code.

I can't support completely what is, in my view, gutting the bill so that there's no minimum at any point. Someone can have three, four, five, six, multiple...and we won't even, as parliamentarians, say that's deserving of a six-month sentence? These are not first-time offenders. They're not second-time offenders.

This is a major move from what Mr. Scheer had presented, in an effort to compromise.

I'll leave it at that. I can't, as a member of Parliament, support anything that would go lower than where we're prepared to go. I ask members to give one more consideration to this, which I think addresses 90% of the concerns I've heard mentioned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Mr. Moore has appealed to the opposition for some compromise.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

On a point of order, I wonder if we could suspend for two minutes for caucus. It's a new proposal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Is the committee in agreement?

Okay, we will suspend for two minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I'd like to call the members to order.

The opposition has had time to caucus and discuss the matter.

Mr. Lee, do you have a comment?

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

The members on this side of the table sincerely considered the kind and reasonable offer of the government to try to massage the penalty sections, but we are still wedded to the principle of not endorsing mandatory minimums in this particular bill. Perhaps if there were more time there could be more discussion.

I want to point out, Mr. Chairman, that it's possible that if the government amendment were withdrawn.... No, maybe it isn't. I just thought it could be put at report stage. I may be wrong in saying that. Just to withdraw doesn't do the trick, because it could have been put at committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Because we are amending these sections now, further amendments could be made at report stage.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Another tweak could be made, I think.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Yes.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, that's fine.

We'll put the amendments in whatever way you think best, and we'll see where we come out of it, but we're not able to reach an agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I'm not quite clear what your comment is. You are willing to leave it in my hands to say...?

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

No, I'm willing to leave the rest of the meeting in your good hands, and to put the amendments. We'll deal with them, and then at the report stage, if a member of the House feels so advised, there can be an attempt in the House to....

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

That's not clear.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I have a question, Mr. Chair.

If the committee is preparing to adopt Mr. Lee's amendments, as I believe we're going to do, and if, in a gesture of unity that will be entirely exemplary for us, the Liberal, Bloc members and New Democrats pass the amendments of Mr. Lee, the dean of this committee, am I to understand that we will dispose of the amendments and that, consequently, the Bloc will withdraw its amendment?

Does that mean that we are also going to pass the government's amendments, or are we going to dispose of them? If we pass the Liberal amendment, do we dispose of the government amendment, or will the government be able to come back with that at the report stage, in which case it will be defeated a second time?

Mr. Petit, I'll make only one bite out of you.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, let's get on with the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

L-1 would completely remove G-1 and BQ-1.

G-2, if accepted, is not caught, if you will, on any of the other motions that are put forward. If G-2 is accepted--

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Let's vote. If we agree to Mr. Lee's amendment, two amendments survive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

G-2 is just an addition.

Mr. Bagnell, we are running out of time, and I know that everyone is going to be anxious to get into the House for question period. Do you have a comment?