Justice Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Lee, if you feel there's a necessity for an amendment that would clarify that it would be a person who would knowingly contribute to somebody's efforts to produce this stuff, if that's a necessity to have, I would beg you, for the sake of everybody who is impacted by this drug, to contribute, because 90% of the drug that's sold on the street is sold out of super labs. These aren't, for lack of a better term, mom and pop operations.

I don't think that in this legislation we're going to go after local pharmacists who sell a package of cold medication. That's not my intent, and I want it to be very clear that it's not my intent. What I am very concerned about is these super labs that are putting out 90% of the drug that's on the street. When I hear kids in my own riding, grade 6 students, saying that people are selling candy pop rockets in their community and they contain--

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You have made that point, but--

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Lee, your time is up.

I see there are a number of questions and that they all take the same thread.

I'm going to turn the questioning over to Mr. Moore right now.

Mr. Moore, you have the floor.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thanks, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Warkentin, for bringing this forward. Obviously, it is a concern of yours. It should be a concern of us all with what we probably all hear about crystal meth in our ridings.

Why don't you take us through a typical scenario now where law enforcement or prosecution is running into a problem under the current laws and what your bill would address--I think you were starting to do that--and maybe some of the specific feedback you have received that you have incorporated into your bill? What are the concerns that stakeholders are raising with you? Maybe you could give a scenario where the current law is falling short and the adoption of your bill would address some of that shortcoming.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

The issue that a lot of law enforcement people are very concerned about is that it is not necessarily the individuals who are producing the crystal meth who are importing or collecting up these precursors; it is actually a third party or a second party who's involved in contributing these precursors. So they are knowingly providing these precursors to the manufacturer. Basically, the scenario would be that an RCMP officer would see a transaction of large quantities of cough syrup that wouldn't be going to a drugstore or wouldn't be going to the regular retailers of this but would be going to some person who is just a private citizen. We're talking about large quantities. Right now they don't have the tools that are necessary for that type of intervention or that type of stop in the chain of events that would then lead this product to become an illegal substance.

My concern is that we do have people in this country who would willingly and knowingly sell products and equipment, precursors and equipment, to people who would then involve themselves in the criminal act. I believe if people knowingly do assist drug manufacturers, they have a burden to this country to be held accountable for those actions.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I'm thinking back to the 1990s when there was a bombing of a federal building in the United States. That bomb was made largely of things that are legal: fertilizer, diesel, and so on. I know there was a response then. Of course, there's the inevitable public outcry when something like this happens: how did this happen and how can we stop it? They were things that, for all intents and purposes, were good and positive materials that could be used for very destructive means, in much the same way, I would say, as you've talked about some of the precursors of methamphetamine. Many of them are useful but extremely dangerous in their final form. It's not enough just to stop them, perhaps when it's too late. It has to be stopped earlier on.

Are there any parallels we can draw from that experience?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I believe so. In Canada, we responded to that circumstance as well. We now have legislation in terms of the sale of particular fertilizers and the way they can be sold.

I guess I haven't gone that far. I'm not sure that individuals should be unable to purchase these household goods. I do believe that if there is an intent, then there is the parallel in terms of limiting or being able to stop a particular transaction if it can be proven that a person will knowingly be assisting somebody who is going to produce crystal meth. Absolutely. We as Canadians made legislation in response to that event in the United States. The Americans did as well.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

We'll go to Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I will be brief, Mr. Chairman.

I congratulate you on your initiative. I know that the tabling of a private member's bill is always an important moment. I am campaigning within my caucus in order to have two hours a day devoted to private members' business. In that way, everyone could do their job as a legislator. I hope that some day, this campaign will come to fruition reality.

I did not understand the innovative character of your bill. I was under the impression that methamphetamine and the substances used to make it were clearly banned under schedule 1 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. I understand the concept of intent. We will see as a committee what the witnesses will tell us. Perhaps there are some clarifications required.

Do you have any indications that would lead us to believe that the organizations responsible for law enforcement—the RCMP or the various police forces of Canada and of Quebec—have a lax attitude as far as methamphetamine is concerned? I was also part of the committee, as Ms. Libby Davies was saying, for a year and half. At the request of your former colleague Mr. Randy White, we set up a committee on the non-therapeutic use of drugs. I had the impression that there was a real sense of urgency and that the organizations responsible for law enforcement were very sensitive to devastating effects of methamphetamine. You seem to be giving us a different perspective.

If I understand correctly, you are a member from Alberta. Why would there be something particular to your province that would not be found in other areas of Canada and of Quebec?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

First of all, I assure you, I believe the RCMP and police officers throughout this country, Quebec and Ontario included, are doing everything in their power to stop this. Having met several of them, I know this keeps them up at night as much as it keeps me up at night. Certainly they are doing everything in their power.

I think we have to allow them to have all the tools they're asking for. Specifically, this is a tool that some people from my home province have asked for. They've asked for the tool so they can go after people who willingly assist in the production of crystal meth. I'm doing what I can.

I'm not sure if it's something the RCMP and police officers in Quebec and Ontario have asked their members of Parliament to think about. I know from my home communities that it is something.... If they were given this particular tool, I'm not so sure it wouldn't help the enforcement authorities in Quebec and Ontario as well.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Congratulations, Mr. Warkentin, on getting here. I really appreciate your efforts in tightening up this legislation.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I have gone through the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Your intent here I think is to get rid of the organized element of the supply chain for the production of methamphetamine. So my first question is technical in the sense that if you take a look at schedule III of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, it basically deals with amphetamines. But if you look at section 23, it does not include methamphetamine.

I'm wondering why you haven't addressed that particular part of the schedule with your private member's bill.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

There probably are a number of things that we should get to and need to get to. I think I was specifically trying to address, with this particular piece of legislation, the whole issue of methamphetamines and the assistance that third parties might bring to the production side of methamphetamines.

Maybe this would be an opportunity to amend this particular legislation to include this. If it's something the committee would see to be appropriate and helpful, I would be supportive of that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Well, the line of questioning I will be asking further witnesses who are going to come and testify will be along the lines of whether the bill should be amended so that rather than just dealing specifically with methamphetamine, it is any of the items we see schedule III basically outline.

I think it's much more difficult to prove something in specific than it is to prove something in general. The more we generalize the production or the sale of such precursor materials in the creation of a broader list, such as all of the items in schedule III, it will probably be a little bit easier. I can see a defence forming: “We weren't going to actually create methamphetamine, we were going to create some other type of amphetamine.” All of a sudden, your proposed section 7.1 has been successfully defended against, just based on a technicality.

I'm just wondering if, from your perspective--if the feedback I get from other witnesses agrees with my own train of thought--you agree that an amendment would be in order.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Calkins, thank you very much.

If the committee would so desire such an amendment, I would be very supportive of it in order to ensure that we tighten up this particular amendment and make sure that people wouldn't get off on that type of loophole.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

My other question--my mind is racing here--is do you have a Wal-Mart in your riding, Mr. Warkentin?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I do have a Wal-Mart.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Have you ever been to the Wal-Mart where they have a self-checkout?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I have, yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

If somebody were to buy the precursor agents for methamphetamine from that Wal-Mart in a self-checkout, who would be culpable for the sale portion?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

In terms of that, there wouldn't be somebody to go after because the machine wouldn't knowingly contribute to the manufacture of crystal meth....

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

But I do want to address the specifics here.

We do talk about Wal-Marts and any grocery store being able to sell these types of products, but the super labs aren't going to Wal-Mart to get their products. I did talk about this specifically earlier.

This bill is going to address more specifically the issue of super labs in this country, because 90% of the stuff out there on the streets is produced in super labs. We have to go after this organized crime element.