Justice Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I'd like to call the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order.

Would members take their seats, please.

This is Tuesday, December 11, 2007. Our orders of this day are an examination and debate on Bill C-428, An Act to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (methamphetamine).

Our private member's bill presenter will be Chris Warkentin.

Mr. Warkentin, you have the floor.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank you for the opportunity to come to this committee to speak about my private member's bill, Bill C-428, An Act to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (methamphetamine), as you said.

I believe that by working together we can make a difference in combatting the production and the trafficking of methamphetamine and the pain it inflicts on families and communities across our nation.

Unlike other drugs, meth does not need to be imported or grown, but it can be synthesized using components that are readily available. These two points I think are the most important. The drug can be synthesized from legal products that are readily available, and the drug can be synthesized and available for distribution in a shockingly short period of time.

Colleagues, although it is manufactured from legal substances, crystal meth is one of the most addictive and damaging of all the street drugs, and the tragic consequences and the lives it affects are unacceptable. Mr. Chair, too many of our healthy citizens are losing years of their lives to its devastation, and some are dying in the grip of the horror of this drug.

In order to frame the discussion today, I will spend a little bit of time explaining what methamphetamine is, how it impacts people in our society in a practical way, and the scope of the problem we're facing.

Methamphetamine is a stimulant. It is a derivative of a synthetic stimulant first produced in 1919. It is sold on the street under the street names of jib, crack, meth, speed, glass, fire, ice, and other names. Meth is available as a powder and it can be taken orally, snorted, or injected.

Typically, the drug is heated or vaporized and the fumes are inhaled, allowing the drug to enter the bloodstream very rapidly. It takes only about eight seconds for the drug to get to a person's brain.

Crystal meth is smokable, and this makes the most potent form of the drug, and for this reason many young people tend to gravitate toward it.

Meth is relatively easy and inexpensive to make, using commonly available ingredients called precursor chemicals. The recipe for meth includes products such as over-the-counter cold medications, paint thinner, household products like drain cleaner, and agricultural chemicals such as anhydrous ammonia.

The ability to purchase these commonly available products at any Wal-Mart or Superstore, coupled with the ability to produce crystal meth virtually anywhere, makes it a dangerous combination.

These two facts speak to the limited opportunity for enforcement authorities to intervene. And while I know this bill in itself will not totally stop the production of meth, I hope that offering the authorities these additional tools can assist them in putting a stop to the production and subsequent distribution of meth.

Although meth can be produced almost anywhere, undercover super labs produce the majority of crystal meth that is sold on the streets today. These makeshift laboratories present a grave danger as extremely flammable liquids and corrosive chemicals are being used and mixed by people with no experience or expertise in handling such dangerous products. The hazards of these undercover labs are numerous. There are the problems of exposure to harsh chemicals and the potential of exposure to toxic fumes and poisonous gases during production. There have been cases of fires and explosions caused by poor equipment. There have been situations of severe burns or death from fires or explosions.

There is also danger to the first responders, such as the police, the firefighters, and the social workers who show up at the scene. And of course there is the harm to the environment from leftover precursors and used lab equipment that leave behind toxic byproducts that pollute the land, the air, and the water in places where they are spilled or where they are dumped.

These super labs require huge amounts of precursor material to produce the quantity of meth they do. By giving the authorities the tools that are outlined in my bill, there will be an additional opportunity to stop the production here in Canada.

The dangers of crystal meth go far beyond the production at the core. Let's not forget the core of this issue is people. This bill proposes a vital change to the current legislation, and it is my prayer that we will turn the tide in combatting this drug. The addictive qualities of methamphetamine make it a dangerous drug for any person to experiment with.

To quote a participant from my home province, who was involved in the consultation on this drug, “No human being should be putting fertilizer, iodine, Drano, and battery acid all mixed together with a little ephedrine into their system.” But that is what people are doing.

We need to defend our youth and our families from this harmful, life-destroying drug.

In order to put this into perspective, I think it's important that committee members understand that users of meth tend to be between the ages of 10 and 25 years old. Many users start living at home, attending school or holding down a job, but they end up living on the streets as the addiction progresses.

One frightening fact is that some children, youth, or young adults who are exposed to meth don't even know that they've been exposed to crystal meth or meth. More and more drug traffickers are mixing meth with other drugs because it is so inexpensive and it gives other drugs greater addictive qualities. In fact, I recently saw a statistic that predicted that between 70% and 75% of the drug ecstasy sold on the streets of my home province contains meth because it increases the user's demand for more.

Crystal meth is a highly addictive drug with a long-lasting high that produces an overwhelming euphoria. Those who use it are quickly addicted and experience more intense effects from prolonged use compared with other drugs. The use and abuse of meth is on the rise throughout Canada. Its prevalence is growing as dealers find new ways to target potential users and find new ways to sell their drug.

As part of my goal of reducing the harm that meth can inflict on my community, I've done a number of things, including visiting local area schools in my riding to talk about the horrors of meth. While visiting a grade 6 class I was shocked to hear students tell me of their personal awareness of this drug, as someone in their community had been trafficking meth in the form of candy “pop rocks”.

Mr. Chair, the madness has to stop.

Access to the precursors and equipment used to make this deadly drug is a significant problem. The police need legislation in order to combat the spread and the abuse of this deadly drug. The accessibility to precursors and the low cost of producing this drug impact all economic and social groups. Any person who knowingly exploits young people for financial gain needs to be pursued and dealt with aggressively. I have no tolerance for people who willingly contribute to the destructive pattern of drug abuse.

Meth users tend to be between the ages of 10 and 25. We are speaking of some of the most vulnerable in our society. These kids, these young people, are the ones who have the most to lose, the ones who are most impacted by crystal meth. It is incumbent, I believe, upon us as legislators to enact legislation that holds to account those who willingly produce, or support those who produce, this harmful substance.

I thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'd be happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Warkentin. It's a very interesting topic. I know there is a lot of interest in this committee to question you further.

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your presentation. I'm very supportive of this. I do have a few questions, though.

Methamphetamine is listed in the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act in schedule I, and the precursor chemicals that are used to manufacture it are also controlled by the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act through the precursor control regulations. I'm just wondering what your legislation will do to add to the legal regime.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Basically, the precursors are in there. The issue is that in the legislation currently there's no penalty for those people who would knowingly support or assist people who would manufacture this drug. We're going to add another component so that those people who would willingly support those people who are involved in production would be included. But also, the equipment that's necessary for this procedure would also be included in that effort.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

As you said, these things can be made by a number of products off the shelf. And of course those products have all sorts of uses other than to make meth. That's why they're sold. Does this prohibit the production and sale of those products completely for their legitimate use?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

No, not at all, actually. That's one thing that I've been careful of in crafting the legislation. I think maybe the committee will want to consider it and ensure that it's enforced. I think there may be an opportunity for amendment to ensure that we're talking only about those people who would sell it knowingly to somebody who is intending to produce crystal meth or methamphetamine.

It's not my intent, and I think it's important that the committee ensure there would be no chance, that local pharmacists or grocery stores would be targeted for selling legitimate and legal products. We don't want to go after that.

There have been other jurisdictions where they've limited certain products in terms of the amount that is sold in different jurisdictions. This legislation doesn't seek to do that. This may be something we'd want to look at doing at some later date.

Right now it's basically just the enabling factor--someone knowingly enabling someone who's producing this--that we want to ensure is taken care of.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Are there legitimate uses for methamphetamine, such as the treatment of extreme obesity? Would that still be allowed?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I don't know the specifics on that, and I should be honest. That's something the committee should look at. I'm not aware of that, but that may be the case. I did ask the Library of Parliament to look into that. At the time I was putting forth the legislation, they hadn't come up with any type of product that would be limited as a result of this particular legislation.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

What have other countries done?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

There are a number of different things that a number of countries have done. I'm most familiar with the United States. Actually, we in Canada are behind the game on this one in terms of a continental perspective.

In the United States...and I'm not sure if every state has limits, but I know that many states have limited the amount of certain products, specifically cold medications, that can be sold in a particular jurisdiction. They basically figure out what would be the legitimate consumption rate for a particular area, and then they only allow that amount to be distributed in that particular area. So there wouldn't be an opportunity for additional product to be sent out and then brought into the black market for the production of crystal meth. They also have legislation in many states that is very similar to what I'm proposing today.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You can have another question.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

We all want to get rid of this. Do you have any other suggestions, on top of the legislation activities to date? Prohibition on alcohol, and these things, in itself didn't work. I was wondering if you have suggestions for other things we could do.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I thank you for that, because it's something I've given a great deal of thought to. Obviously, we're never going to be rid of this problem completely, even if we take care of the super labs, which is where most of the stuff being sold on the street comes from. There's always the opportunity for somebody to make it in the basement or kitchen.

I think what we have to do is make people aware of the devastation this drug inflicts and make them aware of how highly addictive it is. This isn't child's play. I guess it's getting the information out there. That's one thing I've done in my own community.

I didn't bring it forward in my presentation today, but my community is located very close to Rob Merrifield's riding. In his riding, in a certain number of towns, crystal meth has become a huge problem. It seems to be taken up by people who are using it recreationally. If these people were informed of the long-term negative impacts this will have, I think that would be helpful in reducing the consumption rate. That would be one point.

Also, I think we have to look down the road at eliminating some of the products if in fact we can see from other jurisdictions that this helps to reduce the amount of crystal meth that's produced.

I think there are other things, but if ever there would be a perfect way to deal with this, I'd get on that bandwagon right away.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

We'll go to Ms. Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Warkentin. I would like to thank you for being here to present this bill that is of concern to all of us.

Mr. Bagnell's first question was asking what the bill would provide that does not already exist in the law. In fact, we currently have the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act that includes both A and B precursors. We also have the Precursor Control Regulations. By the way, the Precursor Control Regulations are intended to control and monitor the use of precursors while avoiding the imposition of restrictions on legitimate use.

From what I can see, the measures you are asking for already exist. In answer to that question, you said that the differences were in the area of production. To go into this a little further, we can see that there was a significant amendment to the laws and regulations for methamphetamine, on August 10, 2005. The maximum penalties for possession, trafficking and production of methamphetamine were indeed increased. This is therefore already in the law, and there is even the possibility of life in prison for production.

I feel skeptical about your bill because we already have all that. The only additional provision you are proposing is to make the possession and sale of any substance criminal.

In the Precursor Control Regulations, it is clearly set out that the goal is to control and monitor the use of precursors while avoiding the imposition of restrictions on legitimate trade.

I have some at home, and they are very harmless products. In all homes, we would find batteries, boxes of matches, paint thinner, aluminum foil and objects made of glass. Your bill would make it a criminal offence to be in possession of these or to sell them.

The point of this exercise seems very commendable to me, but I believe the recommended means to fight against this scourge must be improved.

What do you think?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I do appreciate that very much, and I think it's important that I clarify.

Number one, it's very important that we look at the issue of intent. If you're going to be charged for what I'm hoping you.... For somebody who was intending to create crystal meth, there would be an intent involved. That's why I'm very specifically including--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I have no problem as far as the equipment is concerned.

What bothers me is the “any substance”.

7.1 No person shall produce, possess or sell: (a) any substance or any equipment or other material that is intended for use in the production of methamphetamine;

Under “any substance“, you would find household products that would be found in any normal house and that every hardware store would sell. That is where the difficulty lies.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Okay. I fully understand what you're saying, and I certainly--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

As far as the equipment is concerned, that is all right. There are two parts to this section: the substance and the equipment. The equipment is fine. It is the “any substance” that causes the problem.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Yes, I can understand what you're saying.

I think it's important that we clarify, if necessary, in this legislation to ensure that it would be somebody who knowingly was in possession of these precursors for the intent of production. So it would be clearly outlined.

If you're not comfortable with how it's written, I think it is important that you as a committee ensure--and I would ask you as a committee to ensure--that it would be somebody who would knowingly possess these drugs or who would enable somebody else to have these precursors with the intent to produce.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

The Controlled Drugs and Substances Act already deals with the B precursors—these are products that can be found at home—that are used in the illegal production of drugs.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

What's in there is illegal products, but these are legal—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

The Controlled Drugs and Substances Act refers to solvents, legal products and B precursors.

There are two kinds of precursors. The A precursors are products like LSD, cocaine and ecstasy. In the B precursors, there are solvents and all kinds of ordinary products and substances used in illegal production.

As far as I am concerned, this already exists in the law.