Justice Committee on March 25th, 2009

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

The only disadvantage I can see to that proposal would be in the ability of the various police forces to identify the members of each organization. When carrying out surveillance, it is easier to identify someone who is wearing their colours. If the people do not wear them, it is more difficult to determine exactly who is part of the organization.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Like street gangs.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Like street gangs, exactly.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I was even told that, as things were going on in Creole, surveillance was more difficult for your services because you were...

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin, you have seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank you all for being here.

Perhaps we should just deal with the proposal from Mr. Rezac, that we bring in Statistics Canada with regard to the study. I think it would actually be Juristat. Perhaps we could add them to the list. It seems there's a consensus that we do that. From my perspective, in terms of the validity of that survey, perhaps we could ask them to indicate the degree of accuracy in the survey in terms of an accurate reflection of crime rates.

Mr. Cabana, there was a piece on one of the national networks last night on the use of the BlackBerry in gangs, mostly street gangs but I think all of them. The assumption--I think you made the same assumption—is that there is technology available to build in interception capability.

Is that an assumption on your part, or are you in fact sure that this technology exists?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Actually, Mr. Comartin, that goes to the heart of the issue in terms of lawful access. The emerging technology, under the current legislative framework, does not require the industry to build in that back door.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No, I understand that, Mr. Cabana. I think we all do. I'm asking whether you are aware if in fact the technology exists or if it has to be developed.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Currently?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

It has to be developed.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

Let's use BlackBerry as example, because that's the one that was on the news last night. Do you have any sense from RIM on how long it would take them to develop that kind of capability?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Again, the issue is that currently RIM is not the one developing the technology. Law enforcement is left--to its own demise, basically--having to figure out what the technology solution is. That is taking resources away from investigation. We have to invest in research and development to be able to find the solution.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are you saying to us that nobody that you're aware of in the private sector is looking at developing that kind of technology?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Not to my knowledge, sir.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

This may be a redundant question, but I'm going to assume, then, that in terms of limiting people's access to this newly developed technology.... Do we have any way of knowing how we can limit it so that only police agencies that are authorized by judicial authority would able to do it? Do we know if we can build that kind of technology?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

I don't see why it couldn't be built, and actually I refer back to 10 years, 15 years, or 20 years ago. The technologies of those days were emerging technologies, and the proper guidelines were put in place to make sure there was not abuse. Law enforcement was, and still is, and under the present circumstances would be required to obtain judicial authorization in order to do the intercepts.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's interesting, because I had this discussion with the Solicitor General from B.C. when he was here, in terms of trying to cope with Stinchcombe. When I was practising, we had a lot of technology for case management that was available for purchase over the counter. I asked him whether the provincial government in B.C. had looked at putting in place that kind of technology to make it possible. I've had cases myself in which we've had to deal with hundreds of thousands of documents or pieces of paper, and there is the software technology, the ability of the computer, to sort that and identify that and go right to the point of relevancy, but I would have to say I am not aware of any police force, including the RCMP, that has tried to use it on a regular basis.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Actually, Mr. Comartin, you're right. The technology does exist, and there are a large number of police agencies across the country that have access to that technology and that are using the technology. Unfortunately, in terms of bringing the cases to court, there is still a predominance of jurisdictions in which the disclosure still has to be done in paper form.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is that as a result of judicial decision-making?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

In some cases it is a result of judicial decisions. It could be as a result of the defence request, or, in some instances, it is a result of a crown requirement.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that last point.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

The crown prosecutor himself or herself prefers to have paper.