Justice Committee on April 1st, 2009

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

I think in Atlantic Canada we've been a little bit reluctant to go ahead with organized crime charges, and when we have gone ahead with them--I'm thinking of one particular case we had several years ago--the actual organized crime charges were dealt off for guilty pleas and other substantive charges.

I think in Atlantic Canada, or at least specifically here in the regional municipality, we're not used to laying those types of charges yet. I think the crown is nervous. I don't think they have the expertise, and in some cases when we talk about these types of investigations, at this time we're relying very heavily on Toronto or Montreal, which have had some experience, and the crown is talking. So in some of our more recent investigations, I think we're prepared to move ahead. The crown is starting to get more comfortable with it. But, again, a lot of times when you do lay these charges, they don't go to trial, because there are different deals made. I guess that is the best way to put it.

In regard to expert witnesses, particularly in the area of outlaw motorcycle gangs, we do have people who have been designated as expert witnesses. For 12 years I was an expert witness in Nova Scotia and in Newfoundland. I've testified in Montreal against outlaw motorcycle gangs. What's improved is that there are now rules around it. There's training by the Canadian Police College and the RCMP, so I think we've gotten better at it. The rules around it have allowed us to testify much in the same way in Halifax as you would in Vancouver, trying to make sure we put our best foot forward in these types of investigations.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

But on the wiretap question, just briefly--you're permitted to have a year of wiretap surveillance--is it being used for the whole year if it's applied for?

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

Recent experience is that, no, it hasn't been, and I think the crown, again, is being cautious. We're getting the normal terms to do this, and then we go back with a renewal.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have half a minute.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Very briefly, we're thinking of taking a tour of various hot spots, if you will, as a committee. What I'm hearing today makes me think that if we're going to get any fruitful information about gang activity and how to combat it, we should have a good portion of our meetings in camera, that is, closed to the public. Would you agree with that strategy? I'll throw that open to yes or no from everybody except Mr. Trudell, who would probably want transparency.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Chief Beazley, would you like to see that?

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

We could probably give you some more current information that would be difficult to give right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

The other officers here?

[S/Sgt Bernie Ladouceur]

It's the same position from the Ottawa police as well.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

I'd expect there's some information that would be valuable that we would be more prepared to share.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you. We'll take note of that.

Mr. Storseth, you have five minutes as well.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take the time to thank the witnesses for coming today. It was very interesting testimony today. I was glad to hear you talk about how important this legislation is as a step forward, but it is just that, one small step forward. We still have a lot of work to do. That is exactly the position our government is taking. It's the position the minister said. I was happy to hear you agree that this is legislation that needs to be moved quickly if we're to get other legislative tools put in place for you.

I have some questions that come up out of the testimony today. I'll talk to Chief Superintendent Shean, as K Division is the police detachment in our area.

How prevalent is the drug trade to these organized crimes? Is this still one of the main suppliers of finances for organized crime?

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

Yes, all our intelligence demonstrates that the drug trade is still one of the primary activities of organized crime groups. I won't reiterate what I went through in my presentation. We've seen that they've branched out in many other areas.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I have a question on that after.

If it is very important, how important is the use of cellphones to the drug trade and to the drug dealers?

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

In any sense, when you're running any type of activity there has to be a means of communication. So they're an absolute.... I can't recall any drug case that I was working on and had been part of that the person didn't have as a minimum one.... Normally you'll see multiple cellphones or devices to communicate.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

BlackBerrys. Oftentimes they change them and their numbers throughout the course of a month even. So a drug dealer who didn't have access to his cellphone or a BlackBerry would be somewhat of a drug dealer from the Stone Age then.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

It certainly would complicate matters.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

The question that naturally comes to mind for me is that I understand what you're talking about when you talk about wiretaps and how important it is to be able to glean the information they're talking about. If there was a tool put in place so that convicted drug dealers from organized crime were not allowed to access a cellphone, would that not be a useful tool for the RCMP to have? Let's not get into constitutionality here.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

It seems to me that's already been done. It already exists. Some courts have ordered that.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

And that's the lead-up to my next question. How often is that enforced, though? It seems to me it's something that has been done, it's something that's already been established, but you don't ever hear of it being enforced.

[S/Sgt Christopher Renwick]

Sir, I could maybe better answer that at the level I am with the Ottawa police. Cellphones are key. When we arrest somebody we're amazed at the number of times the cellphone is going off in the short period that we have it. On bail release conditions, recognizance, and undertakings, we almost always have no cellphone conditions. On enforceability, we have a street crime unit. Their sole purpose is to be out there and enforce these conditions and look for breaches. It's a very valuable tool to us.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

So you're getting good results out of that then?

[S/Sgt Christopher Renwick]

Absolutely, we are.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Excellent.

You talk about many of the somewhat legitimate businesses that are offsprings. How easy is it for you to audit the business of a known convicted member of an organized crime gang? How easy is it for you to audit those books?