Justice Committee on April 1st, 2009

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Could you target sectors in Canada where this money laundering mechanism is used? Is the construction industry, for example, conducive to that?

You're talking about organized crime in general. Everyone knows that criminals launder money and sell drugs. I'd like to know more about the phenomenon of numbered companies and in what sectors of the legal economy that takes place. Do you have any information on that subject?

[Supt Michel Aubin]

I can't answer you today. Unfortunately, I was not prepared for that question, Mr. Ménard. However, I can check to see if that information is available. If so, we can forward it to the committee. I believe you will be touring across the country.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

That's our wish, but there are lots of obstacles along the way. However, we do hope to be able to travel.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

Michel and I have roughly the same professional experience. I too have worked in the proceeds of crime field. In my experience, the phenomenon of numbered companies does not affect specific industries. I have observed that people got involved in numbered companies in a number of fields. That happened especially within the country, but some people also bought numbered companies outside the country.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

All right. Answer the second question because I'd like to ask a third, if things go well for me.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

I can answer, but I don't want to take—

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

If you answer the second question, that's great.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

We support the bill, but it's just one of a number of tools that are put at the disposal of police departments and people who fight organized crime. I think we talked to the committee about the tools we needed to conduct investigations and access communications, as well as disclosure, the judicial process and the penitentiary process.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

In the final days of the Martin government, every political party passed an act. At the time, Mr. Marceau was the justice critic for the Bloc Québécois. We quickly passed an act on reversal of the burden of proof for property obtained by crime by criminal organizations. I was informed that that bill unfortunately was not used, even though it received royal assent two years ago.

Are you confirming that information and are you able to say why?

[Supt Michel Aubin]

I would like to be able to answer, Mr. Ménard. My work in the field of proceeds of crime goes back a few years. It would be more appropriate to put that question to someone who is able to provide a more up-to-date answer.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

All right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Comartin for his seven minutes.

[William Trudell]

Could I just respond to that?

Quite frankly--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Trudell, on the second go-round you can respond, all right?

Mr. Comartin, you have seven minutes.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Stop cutting him off, he's going to think you don't like him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

No, no, it's not that I don't like him. It's just that we want to keep to our time limits so that everybody has a chance to actually ask questions.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I assume those last 30 seconds to Mr. Ménard aren't going be taken off my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

They will not.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

Chief Beazley--if you can hear me okay--we had Assistant Superintendent Cabana here from the RCMP last week. He got into the lawful access issue.

I posed this question to him, and I'll pose the same to you. We've been hearing about this issue, and about moving on it, from solicitors general and attorneys general around the country, from law enforcement agencies of all kinds.

When I asked him whether he knew if the technology existed for us to conduct interceptions of these cellphones and other devices, he was not aware if that technology existed. So I'm asking you, are you aware of whether the technology exists in this country for us to be able to intercept these messages?

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

Thank you very much.

The short answer is yes. At Halifax Regional Police right now we're actually going through an upgrade of our system that will allow us to do such things as e-mail and texting, those types of things. I understand, for instance, some emerging technology will allow us to deal with the “PIN-ing” that's commonly used between BlackBerry customers.

So the short answer is yes, for most of it. But I'm sure, with the way things continue to change, there may be a few things we can't reach. Part of the argument for lawful access is that somehow, through law, if these companies are going to continue to make these new devices, they should be required to make what they commonly call a “back door”, so that when the police do have authorization to intercept, we would have the ability to do that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I think, Chief, and others, that was the specific point--whether that backdoor access or that technology exists. That's really what I was getting at.

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

To my understanding, in some cases, no. But when I was at a meeting in Vancouver about a month ago, we were led to believe that some new technology that's just being developed will allow us to do some of these things that we couldn't do in the past.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'll pass it over to you, Chief Superintendent.

[C/Supt Todd G. Shean]

I was just going to add to what Mr. Beazley said. There are some things that I think could perhaps be shared with the committee more so in camera, to explain more. We have people involved with that type of technology who could give some further details on the access to those devices.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Perhaps we'll pursue that in the future with the study we're doing on organized crime.

Chief Superintendent Shean, I was a bit concerned. At least twice in your presentation you made reference to the corruption of public officials. I know, certainly, there have been attempts, I think most notoriously in Quebec, where public officials were threatened and attacked and killed on a couple of occasions. Your comments seem to go beyond that, where public officials have been corrupted. I assume by that you meant bribery or outright involvement in criminal activity. I'm less aware of those kinds of situations. It was a blanket statement.

I guess I'm trying to get from you just how extensive you see the involvement of public officials in corruption, being involved with organized crime. Are there public cases you can point us to where there have been convictions?