Justice Committee on Feb. 9th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I call the meeting to order. This is the second meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Members, I'm aware that we had planned to hear from Mr. Saunders, the proposed appointee for the position of Director of Public Prosecutions, today. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, the steering committee agreed to recommend that the minister be invited today to discuss the supplementary estimates. Mr. Saunders is confirmed for Wednesday.

If there are no objections from the committee, we will proceed with the review of the supplementary estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009. We can then consider the remainder of the steering committee's report following the minister's appearance today. We also have a number of motions that we'll be dealing with; I believe there are five. We'll leave about half an hour at the end of this meeting for that activity.

I was remiss at our last meeting in failing to recognize the staff that we have serving at this committee. It was an oversight and it won't happen again. First of all, I want to introduce our analysts from the Library of Parliament, Dominique Valiquet and Robin MacKay. They're our resource people on legislation and studies. Our clerk is Miriam Burke and she has Isabelle Duford shadowing her. I welcome you to the committee.

Mr. Minister, thank you for appearing. As you know, the normal sequence of events is that you'll have 10 minutes to make a representation to this committee and then we'll open the floor to questions.

The floor is yours.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Minister of Justice]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to appear before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to discuss the supplementary spending estimates of the Department of Justice. Just as you were introducing people that you're pleased to be here with, I'm pleased to be here with the deputy minister and deputy attorney general, Mr. John Sims.

As you know, a number of issues have arisen since your committee last met, not the least of which is the growing economic instability around the globe. Of course, Canada is feeling the effects of this crisis, and the recent budget that was presented by my colleague Minister of Finance Jim Flaherty, and that was passed by the House, offers an action plan to get us through this crisis. It is intended to provide stimulus for economic growth, restore confidence, and support Canadians and their families during this synchronized global recession.

In this context, government departments and agencies are more accountable than ever to Canadian taxpayers.

Over and beyond our fiscal responsibilities, our government is committed to keeping Canadians safe and contributing to global security. As Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, I have made it a priority for the Department of Justice to develop policy and legislation that addresses crime more effectively, thereby increasing the confidence of Canadians in the justice system.

The Government is committed to accountability. This is why, in December 2006, this Government created the Public Prosecution Service of Canada as an entity separate from the Department of Justice.

Our government took this step to make it absolutely clear that criminal prosecutions are independent from political influence.

A selection committee was struck in 2007, under the Director of Public Prosecutions Act, to assess the candidates for the position of Director of Public Prosecutions. As you will recall, the committee included representatives from all opposition parties. The selection committee provided me three recommended candidates from which to choose. I appreciate the work of the committee members, a number of whom are with us today.

From this list I nominated Mr. Brian Saunders. Mr. Saunders has been acting Director of Public Prosecutions since December 2006 and has demonstrated his expertise and dedication to working in the best interests of Canadians. I am confident that he will continue to be instrumental in maintaining the level of confidence Canadians expect from their criminal justice system.

As you may know, parliamentary committee approval is required before I can recommend Mr. Saunders to the Governor in Council for appointment as Director of Public Prosecutions. I believe you indicated in your opening comments, Mr. Chairman, that this committee will review the proposed appointment of Mr. Saunders on Wednesday.

In addition to accountability, my department seeks to ensure accessibility, efficiency, and fairness of our system of justice, and to promote respect for the rule of law. In that regard, the department administers a number of funding programs that I believe are of great value to Canadians. One of them is the child-centred family law strategy.

As our supplementary estimates indicate, we wish to allocate an additional $24.42 million for the Department of Justice's child-centred family law strategy. The programs under this strategy aim to minimize the potentially negative impact of separation and divorce on children. The objectives are to help separating and divorcing parents agree on parenting arrangements that focus on the needs of their children, and to keep such cases outside of a courtroom wherever possible. This not only reduces the impact of family breakdown on our children but lessens the burdens on our courts. The strategy, which was originally slated for five years, was renewed for a sixth year, for which the supplementary funding is needed.

As of April 2009, the initiative supporting families experiencing separation and divorce, announced last September to begin in fiscal year 2009, will begin building on the successes of the previous initiative to improve access to the family justice system and encourage parents to comply with their family obligations, including support and access. Overall funding for this initiative amounts to $122 million over five years, which will support mediation, parenting education, and child support recalculation services. It will help parents make sound decisions and maintain positive relationships with their children. In addition, we will provide $16 million per year for the provinces and territories, which are responsible for the delivery of family justice services. This funding will support enforcement services to help the provinces and territories collect child support for the benefit of families.

Some of that funding will also be available for non-governmental organizations to promote legal education and professional training. This initiative demonstrates the government's commitment to strengthening Canadian families and ensuring that those families experiencing separation and divorce will continue to be well served.

My department is also requesting supplementary funding to continue providing legal advice to the Government of Canada in matters relating to national security. The funding will ensure that the government will continue to rely on the expertise and representation of Justice counsel in cases such as those detailed in the report of the Iacobucci inquiry. As the related cases come before the courts, the government will continue to rely on the expertise and representation of Justice counsel.

This government remains committed to helping victims better navigate and deal with the criminal justice and correction system. To that end, we have increased allocations to the victims fund by $5.75 million annually since budget 2006 to, among other things, provide greater financial assistance to those victims who wish to attend National Parole Board hearings, assist Canadians who have been victimized abroad, provide additional funding to provincial and territorial governments to enhance or develop new services for underserved victims of crime, and provide resources to the territories to directly assist victims with emergency costs. In total, we've increased the funding to the federal victims strategy by $54 million over four years. We have established an independent federal ombudsman for victims of crime to ensure that the federal government lives up to its commitments and obligations to victims of crime, and gives victims a strong and effective voice in the justice system.

I had the pleasure of tabling the office's first annual report to Parliament last week, along with the government response to recommendations.

The Department of Justice has the overall lead on the national anti-drug strategy, which was announced in October 2007. Through its youth justice fund for treatment programs, the Department of Justice is responsible for allocating funding through provincial, territorial, and non-governmental organizations to programs that explore and evaluate drug treatment options for youth in the justice system. Over the last year, the Department of Justice has allocated a total of $1.47 million to programs that have supported salaries for addiction workers in Prince Edward Island, offered equine therapy in western Ontario, and supported a treatment program for aboriginal youth involved in drugs and gangs in Manitoba. These programs are providing innovative treatment options for youth who are addicted to drugs.

I believe that legal aid is one of the pillars of Canada's justice system and ensures continued protection of individual rights. In budget 2007, for the first time in more than a decade, the government converted the $30 million in interim resources into ongoing permanent funding for criminal legal aid.

This approach provides stable and predictable federal funding that will assist the provinces and territories in developing long-term strategies to support and manage the delivery of criminal legal aid.

In addition, this government continued interim resources for immigration and refugee legal aid of $11.5 million annually to the provinces that provide these services: British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, and Newfoundland and Labrador. I believe that in cooperation with our provincial and territorial partners we will continue to build a more effective legal aid system.

Mr. Chairman, our department has also requested some $3 million in the main estimates for grants and contributions under the justice partnership and innovation program. This program contributes to policy development to ensure the justice system remains accessible, efficient, and effective. Some of the resources dedicated to the program are used to support public legal education and information organizations that provide Canadians with plain language, user-friendly legal information on issues related to general law, family violence, or family law. The Department of Justice is committed to continuing to play a leadership role in ensuring that Canadians have access to justice.

Mr. Chairman, our government also recognizes that our aboriginals enter our criminal justice system in disproportionate numbers. To that end, we have renewed our commitment to the aboriginal justice strategy until 2012, and we'll make an additional investment of $40 million, for a total of $85 million over five years.

The strategy provides programs and justice services to more than 400 aboriginal communities across Canada, helping to hold offenders accountable for their actions, increasing awareness of victims issues, and promoting greater youth connection with aboriginal culture and traditions. Over time, they have helped reduce the number of aboriginal people coming into conflict with the justice system. By recommitting and increasing our support to this strategy, the Government of Canada will be better able to continue its partnership with aboriginal communities, service providers, and our provincial and territorial partners.

Mr. Chairman, we have accomplished much in the way of justice legislation, which has been complemented by initiatives and legislation undertaken by my colleagues, the public safety minister Stockwell Day and now Peter Van Loan.

As you know, we have passed into law the comprehensive Tackling Violent Crime Act, which aims to better protect youth from sexual predators, protect society from dangerous offenders, get serious with drug-impaired drivers, and toughen sentencing and bail for those who commit serious gun crimes. We've also increased penalties for those who are convicted of street racing, ended conditional sentences for serious personal injury offences, introduced a national anti-drug strategy, and conducted a cross-Canada review of the youth criminal justice system.

I want to reiterate why we undertook the review of the youth criminal justice system. Many Canadians have told us that serious and violent young offenders are sometimes not held fully accountable under the act. Our government shares the concern, and it has committed to ensuring that youth sentences are proportionate to the seriousness of the crime. We felt that the fifth anniversary of the act provided an opportune time to embark upon a review of how this country deals with its young offenders.

In February 2008, I met with my provincial and territorial colleagues here in Ottawa, which was followed by cross-country round table sessions with youth and partner organizations. I sought the input of provinces and territories because they of course play a key role in administering the act. It was clear that for the majority of non-violent offenders the act is working, but for the small percentage of violent repeat offenders it has not worked. Colleagues, I think it is important to improve Canadians' confidence in the youth justice system, and it is something to which we all must be committed.

Mr. Chairman, we know there are a number of serious violent youth offenders. Some of these offenders have serious mental health issues that require specialized assessment and treatment services. Through the intensive rehabilitation custody and supervision program, or IRCS, the Department of Justice assists provinces and territories in providing these services. We have asked for $11 million in federal funding, from fiscal years 2008 to 2012, to be made available to the provinces and territories.

We have broadened the scope for this funding. Prior to this change, only youths serving an IRCS sentence for serious offences, which include murder, manslaughter, attempted murder, and aggravated assault, received the treatment. Now youth who have similar mental issues and have committed a violent offence involving serious bodily injury, or harm for which an adult would be subject to a maximum of a 14-year penalty, are eligible for this treatment. By providing this funding, we are helping to ensure that some potentially dangerous young offenders will get the treatment they need to reduce the risk they pose to the community. This will not only protect the public but help rehabilitate these youth.

The safety and security of Canadians is a priority for our government, so you can be sure that we will continue to proceed with our agenda, including addressing such issues as identity theft, property crimes, and the growing threat of organized gangs.

The abuse and neglect of older adults is of concern to our government. The federal Department of Justice is pleased to be participating in the federal elder abuse initiative, which was allocated $13 million over three years in budget 2008. The initiative is led by Human Resources and Social Development Canada, and our department's portion will be contributed to that initiative. With the funding, we intend to assist public legal education organizations within the provinces with programs and publications on the legal aspects of elder abuse, as well as fund research on crimes against seniors and on how to raise awareness of elder abuse.

To conclude, I would like to express my appreciation and thanks to you and your committee for all the work you are doing and will do in the future. The Department of Justice is instrumental in the government's work to respond to the needs of Canadians. Our many programs and initiatives require collaboration, of course, with our provincial partners as well as municipalities and other government departments. This collaboration accounts for much of my department's success in responding to the needs of Canadians through our many programs and initiatives. If we're able to keep Canadians safe and improve access to justice, our department will need to continue to receive the funding to do so. As I've demonstrated, these funds have brought results, and I will do my utmost to ensure that these funds will continue to be spent wisely in the service of Canadians.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Minister. I should also welcome to the committee your deputy minister, John Sims. I think he'll be available to answer questions if required and certainly act as a resource to you when you answer questions.

As agreed, we're going to have seven minutes for each questioner in the first round. We'll begin with Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister and Mr. Deputy Minister, for being here . We do appreciate getting back to a functioning justice committee. It's like a new season.

I'll start right off with a question about youth criminal justice.

Mr. Minister, all of us are in ridings where youth criminal justice is an issue, and most of us are in ridings where the minister's tour on YCJA hit town. We in the opposition only know about it because we were given the opportunity perhaps to buy a T-shirt; we weren't invited to the meetings. But as a result of your meetings—the stakeholders were invited, many of whom, at the local level, MPs across the country would know—many of the stakeholders have told me that they were quite adamant with you, Mr. Minister, that the integration or the insertion of the principles of sentencing, namely denunciation and deterrence, would not work in the Youth Criminal Justice Act. Of course, the reason for that is, why have a Youth Criminal Justice Act, a Young Offenders Act, any youth legislation, unless it is markedly different from the Criminal Code?

As you know, the Criminal Code has the provisions for denunciation and deterrence for adults within it. You also know that for really heinous crimes there is discretion left. Your government has not been fond of keeping discretion in the judiciary, but it still remains for trial as an adult to occur in certain cases.

So my question—and it is related, although you may not think it is, to the estimates—is that you went on tour, you spent money and engaged experts and met stakeholders, but we have yet to see any work product from the tour. In short, did the tour take place, the consultations? What were the expenses? What product came out of it in real terms for Canadians who have spent the money? Since February 2008, you've met with the ministers of the territories and the provinces. There is product somewhere. When will Canadians see the work of that product and assure us that denunciation and deterrence were not the flavour du jour in any of the meetings from the stakeholders—because that's what I understand?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, you've been a busy man, Mr. Murphy, if you've spoken with all the stakeholders in ten provinces and three territories.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

In my riding.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm sure you've had an opportunity to speak to a number of them in New Brunswick.

About a year ago, as I indicated in my opening remarks, I did consult with provincial and territorial attorneys general and justice ministers as to their views with respect to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I indicated to them, as I have indicated to you, that with five years under our belt with that particular piece of legislation, this is an appropriate time to have a look at it.

I heard many things, quite frankly, across the country, and comments on every issue within it, quite frankly. I heard from some people that the Youth Criminal Justice Act works well in many instances, particularly with respect to non-violent offenders. There was certainly consensus that there has to be a separate youth criminal justice system. It's something I am very much committed to, and that came through loud and clear.

We did, though, have push-back with respect to the most violent of young offenders and those of them who are repeat violent offenders. There actually was quite a bit of concern expressed to me. In terms of what these cost, the deputy minister has indicated to me that the estimate for these round tables across the country was approximately $85,000.

In terms of what you can expect, again, we haven't introduced legislation on changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. We've indicated that we will come forward with changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and that will certainly be the product of what we heard across this country and input we have received from our provincial and territorial counterparts as well as others.

For instance, one of the reports that's had a great impact on this, in my opinion, is the Nunn report out of Nova Scotia, with which you would be quite familiar. That report, among other things, focused on the challenge of having individuals or young people being charged and released and charged and released on a revolving-door basis. Mr. Justice Nunn specifically directed his attention to that. You may remember that we introduced legislation that specifically addressed it and the question of deterrence and denunciation, which you just mentioned. Again, that did not pass because the last Parliament did not continue. Again, we're committed to moving ahead and improving the system, improving services to young people.

I've been of the opinion since I've practised law that our best chance of helping people in the criminal justice system is when they are young. If you have somebody who's 45 and they've been committing crimes all their life, that's more of a challenge, quite frankly, than to intervene with somebody who is 16 or 17 years old. We remain absolutely committed to this separate criminal justice system for young people. Again, I think the five-year anniversary of that act was an appropriate time to have a look at it. As I indicated, I started that consultation process with provincial and territorial attorneys general in February of last year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We are moving on to Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Perhaps we could continue to briefly discuss the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The last time you appeared before the committee, you still had not made up your mind about the five-year review of the act, that is you hadn't decided yet whether you were going to consult with the committee or hold cross-country hearings. As far as I know, you have already launched these Canada-wide consultations.

I wonder if you could possibly table the documents that were used for these consultations. Several of these documents were posted on the Internet, but I would also like to know what conclusions you reached further to these consultations. If I understand correctly, your government is planning to table sometime in the next few weeks a bill calling for a major overhaul of the act. Are you now telling us that further to these consultations, the amendments will not be merely cosmetic, but actually more substantial? Obviously, I'd like to see all of the documents.

In addition, I would like to hear more from you about the services that will be helpful to people who are in the process of getting a divorce. Are we talking about mediation services here? What would this mean for Quebec? I would also like to know if you are planning to bring in amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act. I'll start with these three questions and if I have time, I will have three more for you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a lot for three questions, Monsieur Ménard.

The product of those consultations will of course be any legislation that we table in the youth criminal justice area. You used a timetable. That timetable would be in consultation with the government House leader.

There are a number of initiatives that I would like to move forward on. We introduced a number of initiatives in the last Parliament. I'm quite interested and concerned about those. But again, with the present economic crisis in which we find ourselves, I understand that everything from the budget, the ways and means, the estimates.... I appreciate the overriding concern that Canadians have, and that is why Parliament at this moment is particularly--

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Minister, will this be the first piece of legislation to come before the committee? Will we receive the documents that helped you get some idea of the amendments that were needed? Are you planning a major review of the act?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

With respect to documents that we have used, Mr. Ménard, I think you yourself pointed out that a number of them have been posted. Again, mine was a fact-gathering mission--my discussions with people across this country and with provincial attorneys general--and we will proceed in due course. I gave you a little bit of an idea with respect to the timetable.

With respect to divorce, I indicated to you that the family law strategy initiative that was announced recently provides assistance, for instance, to Canadians who want to access information with respect to child support--the federal involvement in that. We work with our provincial and federal territorial partners. I would be glad to provide you with further details of that strategy. It's one that I have been very interested in.

You had three points. With respect to the Canadian Human Rights Act, I'm looking forward to the report that will come from your committee. My understanding is that Mr. Storseth has tabled a motion on that. Of course you remember that not long ago we had the Moon report, and we are looking at that. So I look forward to your conclusions and any comments you have with respect to that.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

My comment concerns the Canadian Human Rights Act. I know that you represent that left-minded wing of Cabinet. As you know, many people would like to see incorporated into the legislation the social condition...

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The translation isn't quite keeping up, so if you could....

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Alright. I'm sorry.

I'm directing my comment to you because I know that you represent somewhat the Conservative Party left on justice matters.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I guess that's what you meant by....

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Are you aware that for the past ten years, there has been talk of recognizing one's social condition as grounds for prohibiting discrimination and that Quebec is the only province to recognize this and to help social welfare recipients? It really is time for us to move forward on this. The federal government is the only jurisdiction not to provide protection to persons subject to the court's jurisdiction.

I'd like to hear your views on this matter.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Monsieur Ménard, with respect to that and any suggestions you might have, please make them in this committee's study of that. Again, I welcome any studies, any reports, any comments on that, and we will have a look at whatever recommendations you and/or this committee come up with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Ménard, you have one minute, so one short question and a short answer.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Fine then.

In years past, Health Canada was responsible for the National Anti-Drug Strategy. Your department is now responsible for the Strategy. Can you provide us with additional details about treatment programs and what this really means in terms of jurisdictional compliance?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

First of all, while the Department of Justice has the lead on it, I just want to clarify that the Department of Health is also involved with this, as is my colleague from Public Safety. It's a joint initiative by all of us. Indeed, the first part of the initiative, among other things, was to get the message out, particularly to young people, of the dangers and problems with taking drugs. That took the form of advertising, of which you may be aware. You made reference to your own province of Quebec. It was distributed right across Canada, including in Quebec.

With respect to treatment, you will know that the drug courts that we have in Canada offer people an alternative to get out and break the cycle of getting involved with the criminal justice system. The strategy itself is flexible in terms of working with our partners to come up with innovative ideas, and I encourage you to have a look at it. It's an initiative that I was quite excited to be a part of, because we want, on the one hand, to be serious in terms of sending out a message to people who are in the business of dealing with drugs, or bringing drugs into this country, but we also have to extend a hand to people who have found themselves addicted and want to try to break that cycle. And so, something like the national anti-drug strategy is a great part of that overall strategy, which is to assist these people.

I hope that's of some help. The deputy minister has indicated to me that there are a number initiatives, not just by the Department of Justice, as I indicated, but also by my colleagues at Health Canada, and we'd be glad to leave that with you as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin, for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here.

With regards to the legislative agenda, we were in the process of dealing with the identity theft amendments to the code. I won't say what happened at that point, but we stopped doing anything in this committee just about year ago, actually.

Is identity theft a priority for this government, to get that bill back before the House and this committee?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It is a priority, Mr. Comartin, and I hear about this all the time.

If I could give you a quick anecdote, I used my credit card at an establishment in Niagara Falls. I got back home and immediately I was called by the credit card fraud people, who wanted to know how my day was going in Calgary, which was a bit of a problem since I'm in Niagara Falls. And they pointed out to me that my information must have been scooped up, sent out very quickly, and somebody was using my information in Calgary. And the woman on the phone made a passing comment, as she didn't know who I was, that identity theft was becoming a real problem in Canada. And I said, “You have no idea how completely I agree with you on that subject.”

And so we have to do this. As I indicated to you, when I first made the announcement in Montreal, one of the reporters asked me, “Is this your attempt to get ahead of the bad guys?” I responded that I just wanted to catch up with the bad guys. Our criminal laws have to be changed to catch up with the changes in technology and the sophistication of the people who are in this business.

So yes, this will continue to remain a priority.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Will it be the first priority? Will it be the first bill that we see coming out of your department?